2016.04.22 Dev Chat

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On Mobile Apps, Omei's Data Browser & Open Sourcing on Github, and Upcoming Release of openTB!


rhiju: is anyone online who learned about eterna from scishow?  [12:00 AM]

Milk1234: Have you ever considerd this game being made into an app. (Im sure you have and I know it is very hard to do all the scripting all ovr again but is nice idea)  [12:00 AM]

Astromon: hi  [12:00 AM]

Astromon: funny it doesnt go way off my screen  [12:00 AM]

Milk1234: I know this would have a huge market and hi by the way  [12:00 AM]

rhiju: hi milk1234!  [12:00 AM]

Milk1234: Hello  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: we actually did build a prototype about 2 yrs ago  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: worked on ios and android  [12:01 AM]

Milk1234: Is it still around?  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: let me see if i can find a link...  [12:01 AM]

Milk1234: thanks  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: we did tests via 'testflight', which is no longer available  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: it was a unity port  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: and very nice work, by a student named michael bao  [12:01 AM]

LFP6: Well, testflight is still around  [12:01 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 oh cool i didn't know that  [12:02 AM]

LFP6: Just no access to the app without Mike afaik  [12:02 AM]

Astromon: i would like to make dev meeting on my phone  [12:02 AM]

LFP6: Testflight was acquired by Apple  [12:02 AM]

Astromon: oppose to having to be home :)  [12:02 AM]

LFP6: @Astro: It's possible via IRC. I can send you info if you want  [12:02 AM]

rhiju: @astromon actually we do have a separate app to get you on eterna chat. the famous vineetkosaraju wrote it last year.  [12:02 AM]

LFP6: It's a bit of a pain though  [12:02 AM]

LFP6: Wait what?  [12:02 AM]

LFP6: Since when? How have I not heard of this? :P  [12:02 AM]

Milk1234: ha  [12:02 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 he was going to debut it at eternacon ut we all got sidetracked  [12:03 AM]

rhiju: let me contact him... [12:03 AM]

LFP6: Easy to happen lol [12:03 AM]

Astromon: i searched play store for eterna apps to no avail< [12:03 AM]

rhiju: vineet was super busy, and we couldn't find someone to maintain the app, so we decided not to deploy [12:03 AM]

LFP6: I assume it's not released [12:03 AM]

LFP6: What did he write it in? [12:03 AM]

rhiju: similar story for our eterna-mobile port -- we had the barebones version, but it would have taken another 6 mos to become ready for prime time and then would have taken a really passionate person or full time dev to maintain it [12:04 AM]

LFP6: I want so badly to help make EteRNA (even just the site minus the game) mobile happy [12:04 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 I think it was just for ios, in objective C, but I could be wrong [12:04 AM]

LFP6: Ah [12:04 AM]

LFP6: By the way Rhiju... Would it be of any interest/use if I mocked up some responsive design work for the site? [12:05 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 well that's really nice to know! devs were thinking about revisiting mobile this summer -- would love to have you  on board... [12:05 AM]

LFP6: As in, saving the code locally and editing it :P [12:05 AM]

Milk1234: What is the biggest problem(s) do you think this game has (i think the game is very sleek(is publisity good?)) [12:05 AM]

Milk1234: sorry off topic [12:05 AM]

rhiju: @milk1234 if you want to see what we had -- check out http://www.eternagame.org/web/news/3206038/ [12:06 AM]

LFP6: Actually, we just made some significant improvements [12:05 AM]

Omei: @LFP6,  how would rate the new data browser as being mobile friendly? [12:06 AM]

LFP6: At this point, I think it would be huge to just help give players tools to do things. [12:06 AM]

rhiju: @milk1234 thanks for the compliment! and LFP6 there have been some substantial improvements recently.  [12:06 AM]

LFP6: @Omei Let me cjecl [12:06 AM]

rhiju: its worht mentioning that many of the improvements have come from *players* themselves [12:07 AM]

rhiju: for example, the forums used to be this dense unsearchable jungle.  [12:07 AM]

rhiju: and then lfp6 signed up to be a 'champion' and totally fixed it [12:07 AM]

LFP6: Still working on it [12:07 AM]

LFP6: Kinda got sidetracked :$ [12:07 AM]

Elves: in the meantime there is a mobile app called Photon that allows flash web browsing [12:08 AM]

Elves: I haven't tried it in a while, but i used to be able to play mobile eterna on it [12:08 AM]

LFP6: But they have gotten quite a but cleaner [12:07 AM]

Astromon: the forums are very organized nice job lfp6 [12:08 AM]

LFP6: Thanks [12:08 AM]

LFP6: Also was nice that Vineet got them upgraded to the new version, which is much nicer [12:08 AM]

Astromon: hi Elfves! [12:08 AM]

LFP6: Heya Elves! Good to see ya! [12:08 AM]

Elves: the dna game phylo has a mobile app but it's 50/50 chance for me whether it ever registers points, so it's good to make sure the app is solid first [12:08 AM]

Elves: hi LFP6! good to see you too :) [12:09 AM]

Elves: thanks for all your hard work around here [12:09 AM]

Helix666: stuck on puzzle 2-11 next generation Sequencer, put the GC on the closing pair but doesnt work [12:09 AM]

rhiju: @milk1234 in terms of interesting issues for eterna, the main thing is probably going to be figuring out a model to sustain financing [12:09 AM]

Astromon: i downloaded amenoacids on my phone but havnt really played it yet<< [12:09 AM]

rhiju: we are about to open up this TB challenge, and i hope that will inspire funding agencies of private foundations to support eterna in the long term [12:09 AM]

LFP6: TBH responsive websites are getting to the point where apps are starting to go out of phase for many things. I mean, creating an app for a website is getting pretty passe [12:09 AM]

LFP6: Thanks to HTML5/CSS3/ES6 [12:10 AM]

Elves: good point. webGL, cough cough [12:10 AM]

LFP6: For more intensive things, yes [12:10 AM]

LFP6: Lot can be done even without it though [12:10 AM]

johana: hi all [12:11 AM]

Elves: hi Johan! [12:11 AM]

LFP6: Hello! [12:11 AM]

Astromon: hi! [12:12 AM]

rhiju: did you all see the scishow episode on citizen science? eterna is nicely described in it... nando  found the link for us yesterday: https://youtu.be/SZwJzB-yMrU?t=6m40s [12:12 AM]

LFP6: I'll take a look [12:12 AM]

Astromon: cooL [12:12 AM]

Elves: thanks, i was wondering as i missed it [12:12 AM]

Elves: yay! so cool :) :) :) [12:13 AM]

Astromon: is the  new TB puzzles similar in any way to the earlier TB labs? [12:14 AM]

Astromon: is ther a sneek peek? [12:14 AM]

doofenshmirtz: its the reason im here :) [12:14 AM]

rhiju: @astromon yes they are similar to the earlier labs, particularly the A/B challenge that we just finishedup. [12:14 AM]

Astromon: Welcome doofen! [12:14 AM]

rhiju: the sequences are different though [12:14 AM]

Astromon: oH cool [12:14 AM]

Milk1234: Sorry for intrupiting just wanted to say bye and have a nice day(or whats left of it) [12:15 AM]

Milk1234: bye all [12:15 AM]

Elves: what a great ode to citizen science that was awesome [12:15 AM]

Astromon: bye Milk have a great day!! [12:15 AM]

Elves: bye milk! [12:15 AM]

rhiju: bye milk -- thanks for coming [12:15 AM]

LFP6: @Omei: On mobile efectiveness of the browser, it's ok. The spacing creates minor problems on a small screen, the text is a bit small on a mobile device, the panel slider doesn't work, and of course you can't shift click multiple designs. It's little things, but with something as in-depth as the browser, you really need to find ways to make use of all the screen real-estate you have, while keep [12:15 AM]

rhiju: @astromon sent you a PM with info on getting a sneak peek [12:16 AM]

LFP6: keeping things managable with amount of content displayed at once [12:16 AM]

Astromon: milk we have a player here named cake   :D [12:16 AM]

Astromon: wow thanks ! [12:16 AM]

rhiju: @lpf6 @omei three cheers for shift-click on browser. (omei is making some serious magic happen on the data browser) [12:18 AM]

Astromon: i noticed the 2d works in the data browser now [12:18 AM]

Astromon: and i can mutate things in it [12:18 AM]

rhiju: 2d in data browser --> send big applause to @omei [12:18 AM]

Astromon: is there a scroll bar to get to the other icons ? [12:18 AM]

Elves: big thanks Omei!!! [12:18 AM]

Astromon: yeah great job Omie! [12:19 AM]

Omei: @LFP6: Thanks.  Early on, "we" decided that data browsing on a mobile device wasn't a high priority -- it seems like you just need lits of screen real esate to be truly functional.  But neither did we want to  prohibit it.  I've actually been a bt surprised that it does as well as it does, given that no special efforts have been made for mobile. [12:19 AM]

LFP6: The one... tiny... nitpicky... thing that bothers me... The iframe border. Can you maybe remove that? It makes me twitch :P [12:20 AM]

rhiju: @omei do you want to preview your idea for open sourcing? [12:22 AM]

rhiju: i bet a lot of folks here will be excited [12:22 AM]

Omei: Might as well. [12:22 AM]

Elves: :D [12:22 AM]

LFP6: Oooh [12:22 AM]

hoglahoo: Out with it [12:23 AM]

Omei: It's been a long term desire of mine to open up the Eterna development to players. [12:23 AM]

LFP6: lol Hog [12:23 AM]

annamary488: how do you change your chat color? [12:24 AM]

Astromon: very interesting [12:24 AM]

Omei: Lots of litttle things have prevented that from happening.  But the new browser will be going entirely open source, with the master repository on github. [12:24 AM]

Elves: whoa [12:24 AM]

annamary488:  how do you change your chat color? [12:24 AM]

LFP6: @Annamary: Not something you can usually do, only available on via what we call the "dark side", information of which is on a need-to-know basis :P [12:24 AM]

rhiju: even i don't know how to change chat color, and i've been playing for 6 yrs [12:25 AM]

annamary488: what do you mean [12:25 AM]

annamary488: look at Elves [12:25 AM]

hoglahoo: @Omei, is it just the lab browser going open source? [12:25 AM]

LFP6: You can't do it from within EteRNA< you'd need to access chat from a different way [12:25 AM]

Astromon: :D [12:25 AM]

Elves: i have no recollection of the events in question [12:25 AM]

Omei: Yes, it is just the browser. [12:25 AM]

LFP6: of which the information isn't shared with many people [12:25 AM]

LFP6: Neat Omei! [12:25 AM]

hoglahoo: seems like a big step in a good direction - we've been waiting a long time [12:26 AM]

Elves: thanks Omei, that will certainly open up opportunity for improvements [12:26 AM]

hoglahoo: well, I say we. I've been doing nothing :) [12:26 AM]

Omei: The sticking point to making all the source open is the entanglement with Flash.  (Stanford has a  license which has restrictions sharing.) [12:26 AM]

Astromon: i wonder when round 101 will be on the new data browser? [12:26 AM]

Elves: LOL [12:27 AM]

LFP6: Will there be any contribution guidelines set up? I'm thinking along the lines of code style, making chanegs to UI/adding things, etc [12:27 AM]

LFP6: *changes [12:27 AM]

LFP6: I know many projects do that to just keep the project stable, and maintainable [12:27 AM]

Omei: Wgat gets done with it is up to the larger community.  I can't keep up with all that "needs" to be done now. [12:28 AM]

LFP6: Right, of course [12:28 AM]

rhiju: for example for R101 updating, etc., there would ideally be ascheme that would let the larger community do that basic curation. [12:28 AM]

Elves: what is the process before pushing changes live? code review, etc...? [12:28 AM]

LFP6: ^^ [12:29 AM]

Omei: All this real does i open up the possibilities for palyer involvement.  Whether that actually happens or not, we'll have to see. [12:29 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: I think that's related to some of the things I've been working on for Omei. I have break this week, so hopefully I can get that moving [12:29 AM]

LFP6: (Break was not coming soon enough) [12:29 AM]

Omei: @Elves, the github model is that anyone can "clone" the repository and make whatever changes they want.  If they have something they think should become part of the official version, they package it up and "suggest" that that set of changes be incorporated into the "official" version. [12:31 AM]

LFP6: Via a pull request [12:31 AM]

Elves: yes i know but doesn't someone approve live commits? [12:31 AM]

jandersonlee: someone has to mrge into th emainline [12:31 AM]

LFP6: Yeah, the question is, once a PR is sent, what's the process for accepting it? [12:31 AM]

hoglahoo: lol those Elves colors [12:32 AM]

Astromon: maybe someone will put a 3d structure of our lab data in the new brouser after croud sourcing! [12:32 AM]

LFP6: Hehe [12:32 AM]

LFP6: Not sure we can do that quite yet Astro [12:32 AM]

Omei: Yes.  There's still an admin for each repository, who decides what gets into that repository.  For starters, that will be me. [12:32 AM]

Elves: and thanks for the explanation it's not necessarily obvious [12:32 AM]

Elves: yay Omei! [12:32 AM]

Elves: thank you for that [12:32 AM]

jandersonlee: git is far from obvious [12:32 AM]

LFP6: I've learned to love it personally [12:32 AM]

Omei: I will be overjoyed if we get quality contributions. [12:33 AM]

LFP6: From CLI too! [12:33 AM]

Elves: :D lol hoglabue [12:33 AM]

LFP6: lol [12:33 AM]

Elves: hoglablue [12:34 AM]

Elves: ever since i put this rainbow overlay on my keyboard i can't type even more than sual [12:34 AM]

Elves: usual [12:34 AM]

Elves: see [12:34 AM]

Astromon: a rainbow ended on my nephew and his home in paris it was amazing [12:35 AM]

Astromon: it was a huge one too [12:35 AM]

Elves: that's really cool Omei, thanks for moving forward with player dev :) [12:35 AM]

LFP6: Indeed! [12:35 AM]

Elves: ahaha wow that must have been cool Astro [12:35 AM]

hoglahoo: is your nephew a leprechaun? [12:35 AM]

Astromon: haha [12:36 AM]

LFP6: lol [12:35 AM]

Elves: omg [12:36 AM]

Astromon: nope just a great kid  :D [12:36 AM]

Omei: I just wish I could begin to keep up with all the good ideas people have foor it. [12:36 AM]

LFP6: I would love to see EteRNA stuff open sourced so that people (and, you know, myself) can go in and work on implementing ideas [12:37 AM]

Elves: yeah, floodgates open in 3...2...1... [12:37 AM]

Astromon: I was thinking a kernel comman attracter could be scipted to be listed in a given puzzle! [12:37 AM]

jandersonlee: open source lets people put their keyboard where their mouth is [12:37 AM]

Elves: lol janderson [12:37 AM]

jandersonlee: (which makes it harder to talk or type) [12:37 AM]

hoglahoo: that's why I'm not saying much [12:38 AM]

LFP6: I do caution to be wary though that it be well maintained. If this ever takes off at all, you don't want to have everything in a big mess because of a lack of structure [12:37 AM]

LFP6: Protocol [12:38 AM]

LFP6: etc [12:38 AM]

LFP6: lol J [12:38 AM]

Elves: mmmf mrrrf cornflower blue icon frrrrlp [12:38 AM]

jandersonlee: 1st right of refusal - etc [12:38 AM]

Omei: At this point, having it "take off" is the least of my concerns. :-) [12:39 AM]

LFP6: Great thing about this too is that if combined with GitHub Pages, we could actually have live demos too [12:39 AM]

Elves: good point lfp6 [12:39 AM]

LFP6: @Omei: Understood, just wanted to put out the warning. Good intentions of opening things up can potentially lead to a project that is either confusing or left unmaintained [12:40 AM]

Omei: I'm actually not familiar with GutHuub Pages.  What does it have to offer? [12:40 AM]

LFP6: Free Jeckyll hosting on the gh-pages branch of any repo [12:41 AM]

LFP6: *Jekyll [12:41 AM]

Omei: But I'mm mention that the data browser works fine stand-alone; it doesn't require the Eterna sefver to be present. [12:41 AM]

LFP6: Hense it would work with gh pages [12:41 AM]

LFP6: It's static page hosting [12:41 AM]

Omei: Right.  But it is it anything more that simple hosting? [12:42 AM]

LFP6: No [12:42 AM]

LFP6: Just integrated with GitHub, and it's Jekyll [12:42 AM]

LFP6: And no backend [12:42 AM]

LFP6: And free [12:42 AM]

rhiju: hey can i ask players about the last lab? [12:43 AM]

rhiju: how was the second round of a/b? [12:43 AM]

jandersonlee: in what sense? [12:43 AM]

Astromon: I learned how to take my first scores and make them better er testing them  [12:44 AM]

rhiju: @astromon cool [12:44 AM]

Astromon: i will look farward to a third round [12:44 AM]

Omei: It sounds like the kind of project I hope will develop -- an Eterna community that isn't limted to programmers. [12:44 AM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee you were doing some separate simulations in nUPACK of the first round of A/b submissions. did those actually have predictive power? and are you testing any other hypotheses in this next round? [12:44 AM]

jandersonlee: @rhiju _ i haven't finished the analysis. it seemed to help but was not 100% on [12:45 AM]

jandersonlee: will be trying nupack again for OpenTB [12:46 AM]

rhiju: will look forward ot seeing analysis -- hope you can post on wiki or getsat.  [12:46 AM]

rhiju: on testing on openTB -- exactly what i was going to suggest. [12:46 AM]

rhiju: there's a further extrapolation beyond what we're doing now for A/B [12:46 AM]

rhiju: we can set up puzzles for A*B (its basically the same as A AND B in our logic puzzles) [12:47 AM]

jandersonlee: still tweaking the code for reporters rather than MS2 [12:47 AM]

Astromon: I took others analysis of the first round and aplied them to my best scores from the first R [12:47 AM]

rhiju: but i was also working out that we could design RNAs to compute A+B (A-B is harder) [12:47 AM]

Astromon: its very fun and interesting to do [12:47 AM]

rhiju: but even more generally it should be possible to make RNAs that compute more complex funcitons [12:47 AM]

jandersonlee: more test cases (concentartions) would help for arithmetic vs logic [12:48 AM]

rhiju: for example i worked out a function in my notebook where the RNA would only turn 'ON' when the concentrations ofA and B fell inside a circle when plotted in two dimesnions. [12:48 AM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee do you mean concentrations experimentally? we agree, and @johan is testing... [12:48 AM]

rhiju: in terms of more concentrations as states in the puzzle, i'm worried that brains will explode if we have, say, an 8 state puzzle [12:49 AM]

Omei: @Rhiju, That's cool.  I'mm interested in seeing how that would work. [12:49 AM]

jandersonlee: e.g. oglio A at 5nM 25nM and 100nM rather than just 5nm and 100nM [12:49 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Hog's done it:P [12:49 AM]

rhiju: @omei good topic for a dev chat [12:49 AM]

rhiju: @lfp6 yea, when we start designing circle computers we'll need to rename the project hogternahoo [12:50 AM]

Astromon: haha [12:50 AM]

LFP6: @Omei: Btw, what do you mean by "an Eterna community that isn't limted to programmers"? Just that it seems like that's a high concentration at this point? Or specifically talking about giving players more tools to do things that currently need scripting? [12:50 AM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee do you mean having the extra concentrations as tests within the applet for players to see? [12:50 AM]

jandersonlee: in the lab results at least [12:51 AM]

rhiju: its a great idea to show scans of how the RNA responds to A and B, both simulated in the game and in the lab. [12:51 AM]

rhiju: in the game, there happens to be a technical issue, which nando and i have discussed at some length, but have not resolved.  [12:51 AM]

Elves: that does sound cool [12:52 AM]

jandersonlee: I test 0, 1, 2, 5, 11, 25, 50, 10nM in my simulations [12:52 AM]

rhiju: in the expts, it takes a long time o test each A and B concentration (at least 1 hour for each MS2 conc.). but johan has been coming up with some schemes to accelerate [12:52 AM]

Omei: @LFP6 "Eterna community" was not a good choice of words.  I was thinking more of an Eterna development community, where there are more differernt ways for people to contribute. [12:53 AM]

rhiju: hey all i've got to go in 3 mins -- any last questions? openTB will launch next week -- we're still coordinating with press to pinpoint exact date. [12:53 AM]

rhiju: but that's tremendously exciting [12:53 AM]

jandersonlee: I thought we were using reporters not MS2 next round? [12:53 AM]

Elves: congratulations and hooray!!! [12:53 AM]

rhiju: we (players & devs) have been preparing for this for 1 year... [12:53 AM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee -- correct. that 'step 1' of johan's plan to increase throughput. :) [12:53 AM]

LFP6: @Omei: Would like to hear more of your thought on this. Sounds up my alley, but not 100% uunderstanding where you're going with it [12:54 AM]

jandersonlee: still 1hr each? [12:54 AM]

Astromon: cool goodluck with it! [12:54 AM]

Elves: it's very exciting, big thanks to everyone who made it possible [12:54 AM]

LFP6: If you want to chat about it, I'd love to do so [12:54 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 @omei getsat might be a good place to start a discussion of open sourcing the data browser [12:55 AM]

rhiju: i know of other folks who have contacted me about getting involved in development [12:55 AM]

rhiju: so if you start a thread i can guide them to it. [12:55 AM]

Astromon: next week like monday?!  :) [12:55 AM]

rhiju: got to go eveyrone -- thanks for coming to dev chat!  [12:56 AM]

jandersonlee: thanks - bye all [12:56 AM]

rhiju: stay tuned for openTB launch next week! [12:56 AM]

Omei: I'm quite open to it.  I was thinking it would happen with the formal "news" item, but I'll join in any time [12:56 AM]

Astromon: seeya late Rhiju! [12:56 AM]

Elves: w00t! [12:56 AM]

Elves: thanks Rhiju & bye! [12:56 AM]

Astromon: Wo0t!! [12:57 AM]