2016.01.01 Dev Chat

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On Neighborhood Watch Shifts, Hashtags, New Puzzle Progression Debuting Soon, Slack Chat Tools, & Rhiju's Microscope Building Sabbatical


Jennifer Pearl: yes Happy New Year to all [12:00 AM]

macclark52: Hi, and happy new year to all [12:01 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: and so begins the first player-led devchat of 2016 [12:01 AM]

LFP6: Anything on the agenda for today? [12:01 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: a couple of things [12:02 AM]

macclark52: You ended the last one with hashtags [12:02 AM]

Astromon: Happy new year [12:02 AM]

John Cook: #NeighborhoodWatch [12:02 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: discuss hashtags a little again, talk about a new things I am going to try this year and then open i tup to discussion and questions and such [12:02 AM]

macclark52: That, too.  :-) [12:03 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: yes that too [12:03 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: @John would you be willing to talk a little about #NeighborhoodWatch  [12:03 AM]

John Cook: Based on a couple of unpleasent trolls last week, the name seems to fit. [12:03 AM]

John Cook: Yes [12:04 AM]

John Cook: Now? [12:04 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: lets start with that and then we will discuss hashtags [12:04 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: if you are ready now [12:05 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: i can wait for a moment and talk about hashtags first [12:05 AM]

John Cook: Sure. [12:05 AM]

John Cook: So last week at our last player lead developer meeting of the year :).... [12:05 AM]

John Cook: We discussed the notion of having a #NeighborhoodWatch program whereby players would pick up shifts on the chat session to help new users. [12:06 AM]

James Collier: Yeah...? [12:06 AM]

James Collier: Nice [12:06 AM]

John Cook: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/neighborhood-watch [12:06 AM]

John Cook: @mac and I have signed up for shifts.. where a shift is a two hour block. we each signed up for 2x2 hour shifts.  [12:07 AM]

macclark52: Right now only a few hours of coverage, but we might get more.  [12:08 AM]

John Cook: I found the experience to be good. How did you find it @mac. [12:08 AM]

James Collier: I can cover too ^^  [12:07 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: here is the link tot he site were this is being tracked http://doodle.com/poll/nzph7z7kgyqqx8n6 [12:08 AM]

macclark52: Yay, sign up!  The schedule link is on the Forum.  [12:09 AM]

macclark52: What she said.  :-) [12:09 AM]

LFP6: Ah, very nice! [12:08 AM]

macclark52: Those dates are just to set the schedule.   [12:09 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: this will be a great thing to help new players since having someone around with some experience on the site is helpfull [12:09 AM]

macclark52: I guess we can put it on the forum as it develops? [12:10 AM]

John Cook: We may want to coordinate our efforts to make sure that we have a goto list of resources for new users. [12:09 AM]

macclark52: Good idea, John.   [12:10 AM]

LFP6: What if someone can't make their slot? [12:10 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: Eli has nice lists of documents [12:10 AM]

LFP6: Perhaps, for the future, there could be a "call list"? [12:10 AM]

John Cook: Thanks James. I think it would be nice to have a good group of old/new and elderly and young. That way we can cover a great deal of potential users. [12:10 AM]

macclark52: Good idea.   [12:11 AM]

James Collier: Which time zone is used? [12:10 AM]

LFP6: It should automatically switch to your time zone [12:10 AM]

James Collier: Its nothing ^^ [12:10 AM]

LFP6: Did for me [12:10 AM]

macclark52: pacific [12:11 AM]

James Collier: Ah ok [12:10 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: we could draw up a list of "mandatory reading" [12:11 AM]

macclark52: But it should display for whatever you set it for.  [12:11 AM]

John Cook: oh yes and good time zone coverage. [12:11 AM]

LFP6: Done forget the Wiki "Help" apge [12:11 AM]

LFP6: *page [12:11 AM]

John Cook: Thanks for suggesting that site mary anne [12:11 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: good point LFP6 [12:11 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: making a list of material can be done outside of this meeting. [12:12 AM]

macclark52: Yes, there is a lot of good information, but it can be hard to navigate.  Eli has organized it well, though.  [12:13 AM]

John Cook: Personally, I think the main focus should be on making new users feeling welcome and a member of a group which is alive a well. [12:12 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: good point John [12:13 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: we want to encourage adn motivate new players [12:13 AM]

James Collier: We will ^^ [12:13 AM]

John Cook: Go team :) [12:13 AM]

John Cook: Anyway. We need to promote the idea on chat so that we can get other members involved. Many hours to cover. :| [12:14 AM]

macclark52: I think people with a range of experience can be useful.  Sometimes the best help for a new user can be one that is a little less new.  [12:15 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: so if anyonw want to volunteer their time to help with this that would be great. [12:14 AM]

John Cook: @mac and I had the same idea of overlapping our adjacent sessions by 15 minutes. That was a nice handoff. [12:15 AM]

macclark52: Yes, that worked well.  [12:16 AM]

LFP6: Mind if I throw in a bit of a random suggestion? [12:15 AM]

John Cook: Please [12:15 AM]

macclark52: heck no, [12:16 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: lol [12:16 AM]

LFP6: I was thinking about what you were saying about trolls [12:16 AM]

LFP6: Being there [12:16 AM]

LFP6: And neighborhood watch being such [12:16 AM]

macclark52: You were present when a troll turned up?  [12:17 AM]

John Cook: Shortly thereafter [12:17 AM]

LFP6: I mean you were talking about there having been trolls [12:17 AM]

John Cook: Several of us had PM spams [12:17 AM]

LFP6: Oh, that! [12:17 AM]

LFP6: Yeah, ig to that [12:17 AM]

LFP6: * got that [12:17 AM]

LFP6: It has been discussed to have a "flag" feature, but in the meantime I have another thought [12:17 AM]

macclark52: Yes, I remember that one. Somebody made him go away.  [12:18 AM]

John Cook: There was someone else that was just being a chat jurk [12:17 AM]

macclark52: Yes, what is your other thought? [12:19 AM]

James Collier: IMTHEBEST <- Are yiou talking about him? [12:18 AM]

LFP6: I've been looking into team collaboration tools like Slack, which I believe EteRNA is already using. Perhaps we ask the staff if there could be something set up so that nw members could nitify mods [12:18 AM]

LFP6: *notify [12:19 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: I think that is a good idea and that brings us to the next topic as well [12:19 AM]

LFP6: Maybe allow for more efficient communication ebtween members [12:19 AM]

macclark52: mods = moderators? [12:20 AM]

LFP6: Yep [12:19 AM]

John Cook: Go for it [12:19 AM]

James Collier: What about users that can ban other users if they violate some chat rules? [12:19 AM]

LFP6: Or maybe someone even writes a chat bot so that if you're on IRC, you could do /op <message> to notify ops who are on [12:19 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: i am going to be starting to track issues brought up in chat and on the forums (maybe formus not sure yet) [12:20 AM]

LFP6: @James: That's really what the mods do [12:20 AM]

John Cook: Nice ideas @jen [12:20 AM]

LFP6: It's been discussed to allow some more people to have access to those tools, but it's a bit complicated [12:20 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: and then keep track of them and report back durring chats and such [12:21 AM]

LFP6: Want to restrict that as much as possible while still being effective [12:20 AM]

macclark52: Yes, probably a good idea.  [12:21 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: @LFP6 and John I will add the trolls and teh notify featur to my tracker [12:21 AM]

rhiju: hi everyone -- sorry i'm late. happy new year! [12:21 AM]

James Collier: This happens rarely  [12:21 AM]

James Collier: Same to you ^^ [12:21 AM]

macclark52: Hi, Rhiju.  [12:22 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: Happy New Year Rhiju [12:22 AM]

LFP6: Hey Rhiju :) [12:21 AM]

rhiju: happy to answer any questions to devs, especially science ones [12:22 AM]

John Cook: It would be nice to have a /warn system. Once you get so many /warn's over consecutive days you go into a special area where you need to commit to being reformed before rejoining. ? [12:22 AM]

John Cook: I Rhiju [12:22 AM]

John Cook: hi [12:22 AM]

LFP6: Again, similar things have been discussed, it's a bit complex [12:22 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: that being said lets open the free discussion period  [12:23 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: if anyone has any questions for Rhiju fire away [12:23 AM]

rhiju: from our end, there's a lot of stuff happening... [12:23 AM]

James Collier: Like what? [12:23 AM]

James Collier: Rhiju [12:23 AM]

John Cook: EteRNAcon 2016? [12:24 AM]

rhiju: in about 2 weeks we'll release a beta preview of the new puzzle progression [12:24 AM]

LFP6: Woot! [12:24 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice [12:24 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: sounds exciting [12:24 AM]

James Collier: Nice [12:24 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: W00t! W00t! [12:24 AM]

rhiju: its really beautiful in my opinion -- based mainly on puzzles created by players for other players [12:24 AM]

macclark52: That will help bridge the gap for new users, maybe? [12:25 AM]

rhiju: @macclark52 -- yes its a smooth ramp  [12:25 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice [12:25 AM]

macclark52: Outstanding! [12:26 AM]

rhiju: and playing it conveys a lot to newer folks [12:25 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: that is good.  [12:25 AM]

James Collier: Wow [12:25 AM]

rhiju: like (1) players care about each other -- it will be clear that the puzzles are authored by other players [12:25 AM]

John Cook: that would be great [12:25 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: That has been an issue that has come up in the last couple chats [12:25 AM]

James Collier: Great  [12:25 AM]

rhiju: it also includes more connections to the science [12:25 AM]

rhiju: so it will become clear why 'boosting' works, for examplea [12:26 AM]

macclark52: Oh, yay! [12:26 AM]

John Cook: nice [12:26 AM]

James Collier: Fantastic [12:26 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: that is great [12:26 AM]

James Collier: I cant wait  [12:26 AM]

rhiju: and how the ealry puzzles feed into labs which feed into basic biomedical research and eventually new medicine [12:26 AM]

rhiju: and it conveys the work that we've done as a community so far, including out publications to date [12:26 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Will it be a little more obvious what the "goal" is for players once they finish the progression? [12:26 AM]

rhiju: i.e., some of thepuzzles are related to those papers, and after you solve you get links to that work with easy explanations [12:27 AM]

macclark52: That sounds super.   [12:28 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: i want ot play that now actually [12:27 AM]

James Collier: GREAT  [12:27 AM]

LFP6: And can we expect challenges to be altered in their position in the flow? [12:27 AM]

macclark52: I think it will help bolster the educational aspect of Eterna.  [12:28 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 yes. we're defining the broad mission of eterna to be "to empower citizen scientists to invent medicine' (thanks jnicol for the pithy phrase) [12:27 AM]

rhiju: and it should become a lot clearer how the early puzzles lead a player to make medicines in the lab [12:28 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: I really like that phrase [12:28 AM]

John Cook: that is very cool [12:28 AM]

James Collier: Sounds awesome [12:28 AM]

macclark52: I do, too.  Put it on the Home Page.  :-) [12:29 AM]

rhiju: in  addition, we're making progress on a mission video for the TB puzzles, which will make the challenge clear. [12:28 AM]

LFP6: Cool. I was also thinking more of what palyers should actually be doing game-wise though, as opposed to just running through challenges, which I've mentioned seems to be a problem [12:28 AM]

rhiju: @macclrak52, totally. sharif is working on a new homepage and about page. the latter is based on disucssions that began here, BTW, on dv chat and then elaborated on getsat forums  [12:29 AM]

rhiju: so i wanted to thank jen pearl & LFP6 for helping make these conversations happen  [12:29 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Would it be possible for these pages to be previewed on forums beforefinalising them? [12:30 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: yay Im glad there is progress in the about page [12:30 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: glad I could help it was fun [12:30 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 for previewing, yes, of course -- we're going to ask veteran players as well as fresh players to test them in january [12:30 AM]

LFP6: I know I had had a number of thoughts on what I would like the home page to be like, and haven't really conveyed them well. [12:30 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: @LFP6 I think that is a good idea [12:30 AM]

macclark52: Cool! [12:31 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 on home page, can you start a getsat thread? this is  the right time to log your ideas [12:31 AM]

rhiju: and to collect ideas from others [12:31 AM]

LFP6: Sure! [12:31 AM]

LFP6: I've been wanting to do a mockup actually [12:31 AM]

LFP6: If that's of interest [12:31 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 you mentioned above 'what palyers should actually be doing game-wise though' -- can you elaborate? [12:31 AM]

LFP6: Sure [12:31 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 yes a mockup would be great. [12:32 AM]

LFP6: I've mentioned previously that players (in my experience) are led to believe they're supposed to do tutorials, solve challenge puzzles, then solve player puzzles, maybe throwing some effort into labs when they unlock them [12:32 AM]

rhiju: in other news, we've been making progress on a new lab data browser that shows (in-game) the data for switches, etc. again, based on all the cool data visuzalition strategies pioneered by players & johan [12:32 AM]

LFP6: It's not clear what the goal of palyers is in regard from what they're actually supposed to do, ie on the EteRNA website as a whole [12:32 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: That is cool [12:33 AM]

macclark52: The new tutorial sequence should help with that.  [12:34 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6, yes it will be clear that the best way to contribute will be the puzzle prgression (now divided into 10 stages -- I won't reveal yet how they are organized) and then to contribute to labs [12:33 AM]

LFP6: Another outlandish idea: EteRNAScript "plugins" for the browser to add your own visualisations [12:33 AM]

rhiju: because the last couple stages of the puzzle progression are switch puzzles, with hints, the labs should be less daunting! [12:34 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: so you have to solve switches before you can get to the switch labs [12:34 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice [12:34 AM]

rhiju: also the labs themselves should be a little clearer, since they will have some inbuilt progression, kind of like what we tried with A/B in November [12:34 AM]

LFP6: And will the "next puzzle pane" lead smoothly to labs, as opposed to challenges? [12:34 AM]

rhiju: @jen yup [12:34 AM]

macclark52: That makes sense.  So is this going to be the "lab tutorial" sequence? [12:36 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: I liked what you did with teh A/B labs and teh sublabs. That is exactly what iI have been wanting all along [12:35 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 yes -- one clean ramp. For the players who prefer to explore less linearly, 'side quests' will get unlocked too.  [12:35 AM]

LFP6: Niiice [12:35 AM]

LFP6: Really looking forwards to trying this out [12:36 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: yay less linearly [12:36 AM]

John Cook: Got to run everyone. Have a great day. I have hungry guest which will be ariving shortly.  [12:36 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: me too [12:36 AM]

James Collier: Wow i am soooo excited ^^ [12:36 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: bye John thanks for speaking [12:36 AM]

macclark52: I read a little about hashtags in the forum.  I'm still not sure I understand it.  Is it about consistency for identifying a particular strategy?   [12:37 AM]

James Collier: Bye John [12:36 AM]

rhiju: @Jen side quests are there because of your suggestions in a dev chat a few months back during our planning stages! hope you -- and future players like you -- will like it [12:36 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: W00t! W00t! [12:37 AM]

macclark52: Can't wait ti see it.  [12:38 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: thanks Rhiju! [12:37 AM]

James Collier: Thanks A LOT Rhiju [12:37 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Custom quests of puzzles? Maybe? :) [12:38 AM]

rhiju: @macclark52 yes  we have high hopes for hashtags -- to begin, we hope that they will just let  each player keep track of different ideas they have. but perhaps it will evolve into a more interesting system that might let players better organize collaborative efforts. E.g. if jen pearl is running remmy to get soution and someone else is too, they will be able to find each other's trials [12:38 AM]

rhiju: @John great to see you  [12:39 AM]

James Collier: I dont quite understand hashtags... [12:39 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: @James are you familiar with hashtags for social media? [12:40 AM]

James Collier: Yep [12:40 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 bundling challenge puzzles into quests would be awesome. that's going to take a little more work -- dev team is focused on puzzle progression for now -- but maknig quests better could become apriority later in the year. [12:40 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: that same concept [12:40 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: you want this desigsn to be tracked under that hashtag [12:40 AM]

rhiju: In addition to those game improvements, there's a lot of science stuff that's been advancing dramatically [12:40 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: I just know that's been a long-standing request [12:40 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: for whatever reason or definition there is to teh hashtag [12:41 AM]

James Collier: oh i see [12:40 AM]

rhiju: for example, we will be releasing results of AND, OR, XOR logic puzzles soon [12:41 AM]

rhiju: we actually got the data for those a few months back, butit has taken a while to update our data processing pipeline to handle them and to present graphs. [12:41 AM]

macclark52: Oh, yay!  Some of my students made designs for RNA in/ out.  [12:42 AM]

rhiju: @macclark, we're actually still analyzing those data -- I can't wait until Johan has the results! [12:41 AM]

macclark52: Super! [12:42 AM]

James Collier: So EteRNA  willl become more scientific [12:42 AM]

macclark52: It's a biggish dataset.  [12:43 AM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: I know there was (supposed to be?) a discussion on open sourcing certain features, IE chat. Any word on that? [12:42 AM]

macclark52: I'm glad you're working the science more into the tutorials.  [12:43 AM]

rhiju: For all of those puzzles -- logic puzzles, RNA in/out, A/B puzzles, and our now-classic FMN switches -- we had no idea one year ago if we could even set them up as puzzles in the game [12:42 AM]

LFP6: Thinking of that because as I'm thikning of it, it would be cool to work on something to, say, make EteRNA chat work more like Slack [12:42 AM]

rhiju: now we know that we can set them up, players can contribute solutions, and our experimental methods can test if the solutions work [12:43 AM]

LFP6: Which really would tie in with my thoughts for a dashboard and groups being workgroups :P [12:43 AM]

LFP6: Oops, sorry if I'm interupting [12:43 AM]

macclark52: Maybe student groups could then work as teams instead of as individual designers? [12:45 AM]

rhiju: now that we know that, in 2016, we'll really be focusing on finishing these scientific tests @JamesCollier and writing publications that, I think, will be milestones in molecular bio engineering, and the basis for future medical diagnostics & therapeutics. [12:44 AM]

macclark52: This sounds so exciting!   [12:45 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: that is very exciting [12:44 AM]

James Collier: This is awesome [12:44 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: i am so excited about EteRNA [12:45 AM]

James Collier: Me too [12:44 AM]

James Collier: Jen [12:45 AM]

rhiju: regarding workgroups, i love your idea @LFP6 to make eterna chat & teams closer to slack [12:45 AM]

rhiju: @LFP6 but why not just ask eterna workgroups to set up their own (free) slacks? [12:45 AM]

macclark52: what is slacks? [12:46 AM]

LFP6: The idea was that it could integrate into basically all areas of the EteRNA workflow [12:46 AM]

LFP6: And the EteRNA API doesn't use CORS, so webhooks couldn't even be set up to fake it [12:46 AM]

rhiju: for example, if @macclark's students create a 'EternaTWU' team they could coordinate their work via slack, and use the hashtag #eternaTWU  to mark their various submissions [12:47 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: that is a good idea [12:47 AM]

James Collier: What about a tutorial that will teach you how to make molecules that will also be stable in real life? [12:47 AM]

macclark52: Looked it up.  It's like private chat spaces? [12:48 AM]

LFP6: Yeah [12:48 AM]

LFP6: And then some [12:48 AM]

rhiju: @macclark, sorry, slack is a free app that has very good 'groupchat' capabilities. Its now in wide use in the bay area in both corporations and universities. [12:48 AM]

rhiju: It was one of the 'hot' startups in 2013-2014 and, interestingly for us, *came out of an online game*. [12:49 AM]

macclark52: I agree.  Might be simpler to do that kind of thing off-eterna.   [12:50 AM]

macclark52: Sometimes I feel quite ancient.  :-) [12:50 AM]

LFP6: Hopefully at some point I can go back and detail out all my ideas... There's a lot of different thought's I've had, and I can't even get a handle on it myself at points lol [12:50 AM]

rhiju: some other news from devs -- I'm taking a short break from my academic group in the next few months to go on a sabbatical, through I'll still maintain my roles in directing eterna  [12:51 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: WE ould love to hear them I am sure LFP6 [12:51 AM]

rhiju: during that break, i'll actually be building a new microscope for eterna! [12:51 AM]

James Collier: Microscope? [12:51 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice [12:51 AM]

rhiju: will try to occasionally show pictures of the eternascope on the eterna blog [12:51 AM]

macclark52: Microscope!  What will it do? [12:52 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: if you need a lab tech I am unemployed right now.... [12:52 AM]

rhiju: well currently we use a microscope to test all the eterna submissions... [12:52 AM]

macclark52: Hire her! [12:52 AM]

macclark52: Is that to read the synthesis slides? [12:53 AM]

rhiju: @jen wish we could! i'll be donating my time to build the microscope [12:52 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: thats cool [12:52 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: givesme more time to make a smart Remmy [12:53 AM]

rhiju: @macclrak52, this experimental workflow will become alittle clearer actually with the new puzzle progression [12:52 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: cant wait to see the microscope though!!!!! [12:53 AM]

rhiju: but basically, after we synthesize all your sequences as RNA, we get each of them stuck to one of 10 million spots on a glass slide (we call it a 'chip') [12:53 AM]

macclark52: Anything that makes the transition to labs easier is a good thing.  [12:54 AM]

James Collier: What kind of microscope what do you mean? @Rhiju [12:53 AM]

macclark52: That's why you need a microscope.  [12:54 AM]

rhiju: and then we see if they bind a lfuorescent protein by flowing over the protein on the glass slide, and taking a picture of the entire chip under a microscope [12:54 AM]

James Collier: Oh now i get it [12:54 AM]

rhiju: for an 'exclusion' switch puzzle, we see if  the fluorescence turns off if we add the FMN molecule - i.e., the binding of the FMN rearranges the RNA structure so that it doesn't ahve the magicMS2  hairpin that binds the protein. [12:55 AM]

James Collier: hmmm OK [12:55 AM]

rhiju: The microscope itself uses a powerful laser to excite the fluorescence, and a robot liquid handler, and all sorts of otehr cool stuff. [12:55 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: i sooooo want to play with that [12:56 AM]

James Collier: Awesome [12:56 AM]

rhiju: Its currently not obvious to players that so much amazing science is happening during the experiments, but we are making this cleaer in the new puzzle prgression. You'll see :) [12:56 AM]

James Collier: I cant wait ^^ [12:56 AM]

macclark52: When might this go live? [12:58 AM]

James Collier: I have n idea by the way [12:57 AM]

rhiju: I've got to run in a few minutes -- happy to take more questions [12:57 AM]

James Collier: *an [12:57 AM]

James Collier: But its too hard to explain it.. [12:57 AM]

rhiju: @James would love to hear your idea [12:58 AM]

James Collier: Ok i will give a try [12:58 AM]

macclark52: Rhiju, you've made this a very happy new year.  Sounds like exciting times ahead for the project.  [12:59 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: @Rhiju before you go I found something cool looking at the NG labs for the last 2 rounds [12:58 AM]

rhiju: @James if too long for chat, perhaps an eternawiki page then, and a post in forums to get feedback? [12:58 AM]

James Collier: Its not too long [12:59 AM]

rhiju: @jen a key to NG success? [12:59 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: perhaps [12:59 AM]

Jennifer Pearl: a singel value such as the MFE for each state adn teh ensemble diversity point to a good range but not a smoking bullet which is already known now [1:00 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: but if you take them all to gether and look at them at once  [1:00 PM]

rhiju: @Jen that sounds intriguing [1:01 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: you can get designs that score really good and maybe a couple of bad ones by filtering for just MFE, Frequencey of MFE and ensemble diversity [1:01 PM]

rhiju: @Jen can you show a graph -- maybe add to eli fisker's thread in getsat?  [1:02 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: i was able ot get all but a ouple of teh 100 and high 90's scoreing designs for the Same state labs and only a couple of teh 1000's of bad ones [1:02 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I plan on it just wanted to say something [1:02 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: couldint hold my tongue any longer [1:03 PM]

macclark52: See?  Somebody should hire her.... [1:03 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: dont have visuals rady now though [1:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: but i can show one thing if you give me 2 minutes [1:04 PM]

rhiju: @Jen very intriguing -- will look forward to seeing more on getsat -- or seeing succesful designs for the current lab puzzles based on your insigts!  [1:04 PM]

James Collier: What about making in puzzlemaker a different advanced mode which will allow to you to make natural mode the same with target mode ? Its too confusing ... [1:05 PM]

rhiju: I've got to go, but everyone, please post stuff on forums -- or eternawiki, with forum posts pointing to your page. [1:05 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: i will be running all 6 of the orignial NG sublabs through DPAT and make predictions [1:05 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: for the current round of submissions [1:06 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: bye Rhiju [1:06 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice to see you [1:06 PM]

rhiju: cool everyone! many thanks for the suggestions and the postive feedback!! looking forward to an awesome eterna new year [1:06 PM]