2015.09.11 Dev Chat

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On Dot Plot Clusters, Lab Rewards, Prev / Next Buttons, Licenses, Chat Countdown / Help Button, Roadmap Badges, & Firefox Cache 


Nando: well, these labs use scripted constraints, perhaps something with javascript...  [3:00 PM]

hoglahoo: John, why all this extra space? http://i.imgur.com/Mh3hdDJ.png [3:00 PM]

Brourd: I made it for the Friday dev chat. It must be a miracle.  [3:00 PM]

Elves: yay!  [3:00 PM]

Astromon: oH cool  [3:00 PM]

Astromon: i was able to get a design but missed out on another  [3:01 PM]

Elves: glad you're here, hi Brourd! [3:01 PM]

Brourd: And Brourd looked upon the underlined text, and said it was good. [3:01 PM]

Astromon: yeah it will prob be okay  [3:01 PM]

Elves: hi Nando, hi Astro  [3:01 PM]

Nando: @hog: that's not john's area [3:01 PM]

Astromon: we can talk about it another time [3:01 PM]

Astromon: hi Elves  [3:01 PM]

hoglahoo: well in that case, nevermind John [3:01 PM]

Nando: and I guess I didn't think about the unfortunate number ones of this world ;) [3:01 PM]

Elves: wow fancy font upgrade :D [3:01 PM]

hoglahoo: Yeah you probably already know the only reason I pointed that out was to get a little attention [3:02 PM]

Nando: :D [3:02 PM]

jnicol: Nando, why all that space :) [3:01 PM]

Nando: well, that way, hoglahoo knows that he has still room for improvements :P [3:03 PM]

hoglahoo: it should roll over at some value, say, 2 million - like the old arcade games [3:03 PM]

jnicol: and have a popping sound [3:02 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: hi [3:03 PM]

Nando: @John: have players been informed that Rhiju can't make it today? [3:03 PM]

Elves: hi jnicol :) hi Jen! [3:04 PM]

Brourd: I demand a refund on the miracle. [3:04 PM]

whbob: Hi Jen [3:04 PM]

hoglahoo: who did your purchase your miracle from? [3:04 PM]

jnicol: No, attention all, Rhiju will not be able to make dev chat tonight :) [3:03 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: sad face [3:04 PM]

jnicol: Hi Elves, Jen [3:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: hi everyone [3:04 PM]

Brourd: A shady old man, hoglahoo. [3:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: hi john [3:04 PM]

Elves: lol don't worry brourd your miracle is surely brewing [3:05 PM]

jnicol: Brourd, hog and everyone else that feels left out [3:04 PM]

hoglahoo: If the price was your soul, I'm afraid there are no refunds [3:05 PM]

Elves: I think we have enough to discuss that we can still have a productive session [3:05 PM]

Brourd: Anyway, what is on the agenda today? [3:05 PM]

Nando: hi Elves, and yes, I think so [3:05 PM]

Elves: to move forward with production relationships we need to iron out the license stuff, so we could discuss that [3:06 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: First topic: Eterna rocks [3:06 PM]

Elves: also Jen has found some amazing correlations in the dot plot data [3:06 PM]

Astromon: i think getting more pionts in the lab designs would encourage players to partisapate and drive up test scores @ Elves [3:06 PM]

Brourd: All in favor of Eterna having rock music, say aye. [3:06 PM]

Elves: Astro I agree, I believe that devs are working on redesign of the lab points structure, Nando...? [3:07 PM]

Elves: aye! [3:07 PM]

Elves: :D [3:07 PM]

Nando: lab points? [3:07 PM]

Brourd: All those not in favor? [3:07 PM]

Elves: getting points for completing labs, that is something that was broken and is in the queue to be fixed? [3:07 PM]

Astromon: the best players seem to be more concerned about points and new player puzzles and challenges and i think maybe that is hurting our main goals [3:08 PM]

Brourd: I don't believe the reward structure for the lab is being overhauled at the current time. [3:08 PM]

Elves: and also the general amount of points may be under consideration? [3:08 PM]

Nando: to be honest, I haven't heard of that one since I started officially working on the project [3:08 PM]

jnicol: It is in the queue yes Elves [3:07 PM]

Elves: thanks John! [3:08 PM]

LFP6: Hey all, what's up? Forgot about dev chat :) [3:08 PM]

LFP6: Won't be able to stay long though [3:08 PM]

Nando: if you guys want something to move in that area, you need to make some serious noise... [3:08 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87351147/Not%20High%20Scoring%20Stacks%20for%20R96%20Same%20State%20NG%201.JPG [3:08 PM]

Astromon: cool thanks great idea [3:08 PM]

Elves: I know there are higher priorities that have been the focus, so yes anyone who wants lab points sorted out sooner please speak up [3:08 PM]

Brourd: Can we ask about the length of the queue, John? [3:08 PM]

jnicol: It would give you a headache [3:08 PM]

Eized: I finally got my lab to work, yay! (ok, continue on) [3:09 PM]

Elves: hehehe [3:09 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Sorry to interrupt the chat but I have some screenshots of some cool stuff from the MS2 labs. [3:09 PM]

Elves: it's not a real issue list unless you can't see the bottom of the well [3:09 PM]

Astromon: lets see jen [3:10 PM]

Elves: yes please Jen! [3:10 PM]

LFP6: I personally think that a complete reward change is needed for this to work... Biggest issue I see is the incentive of challenge points, but without those there really are no points now :P Just badges and good will [3:10 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87351147/High%20Scoring%20Stacks%20for%20R96%20Same%20State%20NG%201.JPG [3:10 PM]

LFP6: I know it's in the hopper to work on though [3:10 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: and one i just posted a second ago https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87351147/Not%20High%20Scoring%20Stacks%20for%20R96%20Same%20State%20NG%201.JPG [3:10 PM]

Elves: @lfp6 yes exactly, incentive is key. let's make a forum post or dig one up preexisting and post the link here so it comes to the surface. and let's give the floor to jen for the moment, these graphs are super cool [3:11 PM]

LFP6: Please [3:11 PM]

Astromon: what program is that jennifer? [3:12 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: There are two screenshots of plots in Excel [3:12 PM]

Astromon: oh [3:12 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: one is of only non high scoring designs and is labeled accordinly and the other is for high scoring designs [3:12 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: each graph is a plot of the paring probabilities of each specific nucleotide stack represented by each graphs header [3:13 PM]

Astromon: so we need to make our designs look like the high scoring ones [3:13 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: they are the minimum pairing probability of all the pairs in the stack [3:13 PM]

Eized: holy crap why is everything underlined [3:13 PM]

Eized: you know about the dot plot and pairing probabilities, right, astro? [3:14 PM]

Astromon: nope [3:14 PM]

Astromon: a little [3:14 PM]

Astromon: not enough [3:14 PM]

Elves: the top center label on each graph like "42:57" for example represents a series of base pairs of nucleotide in position 42 & 57 pairing, and the series of numbers represents one stack or leg [3:14 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Thanks Elves [3:14 PM]

Elves: so each graph represents one set of base pairs, or one stack  [3:14 PM]

Brourd: I'm not sure as to the correlations shown in your scatter plots, Jennifer. Higher score vs lower score? [3:15 PM]

Elves: np [3:15 PM]

Astromon: oH [3:15 PM]

Elves: the x axis is score Jen? [3:15 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: the graphs are of MS2 Same State NG 1  [3:15 PM]

Elves: and the y axis is probability of that stack pairing, as related to the score [3:15 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: yes Elves [3:15 PM]

Eized: one shows relatively high scores and the other shows labs that didn't do so well i think [3:15 PM]

Brourd: The x-axis is eterna score (which would typicaly be the y-axis, no?) [3:15 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I will adress your issue Brourd in a second [3:15 PM]

Astromon: oh its r96 [3:16 PM]

Elves: thanks Jen [3:16 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: yes R96 [3:16 PM]

Astromon: i was just learning what  the four main bases were [3:16 PM]

Astromon: im going to save and study these readings ty jen [3:17 PM]

Elves: so the amazing thing is these graphs show clusters of stack probability based on score [3:17 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: what tthe graphs are showing is that there are specif stacks that Vienna 2 is predicting will exist in the bottom triangel of the the dot plot which is the MFE design [3:17 PM]

Astromon: patterns woohoo [3:17 PM]

Elves: hehe exactly astro :D [3:17 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: and for low scores there are many stacsk that never will be associated with a high scoring design [3:17 PM]

Astromon: wow [3:18 PM]

Elves: Jen what was the population size? 1300 - 1500 ish? the clusters are really tight for the sample size [3:18 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: alot of teh time if you ahve the same stack predicted (unless it is a intermediate state) then it is usally a variation of the same design [3:18 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: the overall sample size is almost 1500 designs for R96 Same State NG 1 [3:19 PM]

Elves: yes, I thought it was interesting that normally we look for stacks that lead to high score, but this showed kind of the opposite - stacks that lead to low score [3:19 PM]

Elves: awesome thanks! [3:19 PM]

Astromon: so now we have two pionts of views [3:20 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I think that the reason for that is that designs that are poor can not be good but designs that are good can be tweaked bad [3:20 PM]

Astromon: for faster designing and better [3:20 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @Brourd does that sorta help with your correlation issue? [3:21 PM]

Elves: the other interesting pattern is the rows of nearly 100% probability for low scoring designs. it's not just 'ehhh maybe this stack shows up and it gets low score.' instead it is if this stack shows up, no... [3:21 PM]

...foldy for you!

Elves: so the x axis eterna score is real world lab data, and the y axis is predictive conclusions that are algorithm based or in silico? [3:23 PM]

Brourd: I'm still not sure of the relevance. The conclusion I extrapolate from these scatter plots is that certain helices that have a low probability of occurring all score roughly within the same range. [3:23 PM]

Elves: so we would like to try mapping the same data to graphs where the y axis is real world shape data and see if it validates [3:24 PM]

Elves: if anyone has interest in working on this aspect of it you are welcome [3:24 PM]

Elves: basically it would involve obtaining and reading shape data for each stack, and assessing a probability for that stack to pair in real world [3:25 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Currently we are only working with what Vienna 2 is predicting that the MFE structure will be. So we are comparing structures that are predicted to appear and how wellthe design will actually do. [3:25 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: based on those predictions [3:26 PM]

Brourd: Correct. Are these based on single base pair probabilities, or probabilities of entire helices? [3:27 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: When Vienna 2 predicts one of  the MS2 labs to form X stack all of the designs that have that stack predicted DO NOT score above 60ish kinda thing [3:27 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: base pair probabilitys from RNAFold [3:27 PM]

Elves: good question Brourd. Each base pair has an individual probability predicted, is that correct Jen? maybe could screenshot that table [3:27 PM]

Brourd: For single base pairs? [3:27 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: single base pair right now [3:27 PM]

Astromon: oh cas an algorythm be put into place that would steer us away from those low scoring stack? [3:28 PM]

Astromon: can* [3:28 PM]

Elves: Brourd's question makes me wonder a subtlety I still don't understand - which is how we get one probability number for the stack. is it a pure average? [3:28 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: yes each base pair has a individual predicted probability and we are using the lowers of the lowest of those probabilites [3:28 PM]

Elves: I am also wondering for how shape data would be calculated, in terms of stack prob vs. individual base pair prob [3:29 PM]

Jennifer Pearl:  I found a way to do each stack in VRNAFold but will require addinga new module to DPAT [3:29 PM]

Elves: ahhh right thanks. awesome [3:29 PM]

Astromon: you should get a lot more great low scores from me in the r98. haha [3:29 PM]

Elves: so it would actually be cool to see an array of these graphs with that measurement tweaked to be min / avg / max [3:29 PM]

Brourd: Right. Second is how relevant this data is to a series of targets that don't involve dimerization between multiple strands. [3:29 PM]

Astromon: they can be the bench mark lol [3:29 PM]

Elves: Brourd what is dimerization, that sounds familiar but I forget [3:30 PM]

Brourd: While I may be wrong (you can bother Nando with the details) the MS2/FMN targets are partialy existent as more proof of concept. [3:30 PM]

Brourd: As well as to finalize and refine the experimental protocol. [3:30 PM]

Elves: is that two molecules binding together to make one? [3:31 PM]

Astromon: Round 98 test results coming out soon? [3:31 PM]

Brourd: Dimerization would be two polymers forming a complex. [3:31 PM]

Elves: thanks :) [3:31 PM]

Brourd: In the context of Eterna. [3:31 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: so would that be when the pair is formed [3:31 PM]

Elves: so Brourd are you pointing out that some of these stacks may be between two separate molecules as opposed to traditional folding of one upon itself? [3:31 PM]

Brourd: Part of what one needs to look for (more than the ability to refine existing data sets) are predicitive trends in the data. [3:32 PM]

Brourd: For example, do RNA sequences with helices that should switch tend to do better with a certain range of base pair probabilities. [3:33 PM]

Elves: what direction would you think is most constructive to apply this ability to identify stacks with highest probability to pair according to score? [3:33 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Ive found some preliminary stuff about trends in teh stacks at the next of the FMN molecule [3:33 PM]

Elves: how do we know there is a helix by the way? are some stacks actually helices in 3D? [3:34 PM]

Brourd: It's really not useful at this stage (imo) to have statistics about targets that may radically change going forward. That would put the current usefulness of the tool as a reactive measure of design, not as a proactive measure that can be incorporated as a constraint, as an example. [3:34 PM]

Brourd: The existence of the helix would be inferred through the base pairing probabilities and predictions of the engine. [3:35 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: This is usefull for getting wedding out the MS2 labs [3:35 PM]

LFP6: I need to head out. By the way, the comment I made on GetSat about points/rewards is here: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/new-puzzle-progression?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5Bfilter_by%5D=all&topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5Breply_id%5D=15950608#reply_15950608 Didn't touch on the idea of what reward system would work well though [3:35 PM]

LFP6: Will check the log later [3:35 PM]

Elves: Brourd are you saying the readout is too specific to the particular sequence? i.e. that the stack formation doesn't carry over as conclusions we can apply predictively to future designs? [3:35 PM]

Elves: awesome thanks very much LFP6! have a great day! [3:36 PM]

Astromon: later lfp thanks [3:36 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: For the MS2 stuff I was talking about earlier you would need to run 1 or 2 initial labs to get everyting in the high score ball park [3:36 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Here is a file with some rough notes about a trend I noticed [3:37 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87351147/Connective%20Stacks%20need%2050%20percent%20pairing%20probs.xlsx [3:37 PM]

Elves: I see a global principle emerging from this data that shows we, for example, should not only be concerned about looking for stacks that lead to high scores, but in designing consider avoiding certain classes... [3:37 PM]

...of stacks that lead to low scores. whether you can actually classify the stacks across targets is what you doubt?

Brourd: The chip riboswitch labs can neither confirm nor deny existence of any helices, so at best you have to infer the existence of those and their frequency within the ensemble at equilibrium form the computer models we use.  [3:38 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: The ealier stuff is not meant to be predictive yet just help guide, Im working of the predicted structure part still but will be working on a algorithm to find  trends and intermediate states in the upper triangel [3:38 PM]

Elves: thanks for the context on helices Brourd, I've been wondering about that [3:39 PM]

Brourd: Stacks, helices, stems are all the same in the context of this conversation. [3:39 PM]

Astromon: oH its a work in progress nice work so far jen [3:39 PM]

Elves: awesome that is helpful thanks. and leg / arm as well [3:40 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: There is so much I want to do and LFP6 wrote me a script so I can start looking at more data [3:40 PM]

Astromon: seeing patterns is a step in the right direction and look forword to see other finding of it in the future [3:40 PM]

Elves: there does seem to be global factors that carry across targets, like stack vs loop, and long vs short stacks, and triloops vs big loops, there are patterns where each requires more or less energy to stay together [3:41 PM]

Astromon: long stacks are more stable [3:41 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I think that once we can analyze more labs with more data points we will start to see more patterns [3:42 PM]

Elves: so while exact sequences and positions of binding will vary across targets, and even within lab sets, could there not be patterns that apply to whether a triloop for example needs a strong stack nearby to stay... [3:42 PM]


Astromon: its best to put gu if they are needed [3:42 PM]

Brourd: Anyway, I believe Nando wanted to showcase a tool that he developed. We can't spend too much time on a single topic like this. [3:42 PM]

whbob: @ jem: Could you use data from state #1 of RNA-in_reporter-in where the reporter is not present in the solved molecule?  To test it's probabilities?  [3:42 PM]

Elves: yes we only have 15 minutes left. Nando? [3:43 PM]

Nando: well, it's not a big one, and I'd hate to interrupt [3:43 PM]

Nando: you guys sure? [3:43 PM]

Elves: and a big thanks to Jen for presenting the early findings, thank you Jen! [3:43 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: NP [3:43 PM]

Elves: I think the clusters are really interesting, even just from a graph nerd perspective. :) [3:44 PM]

Astromon: when is the test results going to be ready anybody know? [3:44 PM]

Nando: you mean R97 astro? [3:44 PM]

Astromon: jen needs more bad test scores for goodness sakes [3:44 PM]

Astromon: yes [3:45 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @whbob the RNA-in labs need NUPACK since it has teh second RNA from teh reporter. If you are looking at everything without the reported being involved i think so [3:45 PM]

Nando: the word is still "soon", as far as I know [3:45 PM]

Elves: data data om nom nom [3:45 PM]

Astromon: oH Okay [3:45 PM]

Elves: btw to follow up on last chat, hoglahoo there is a forum post now for countdown to next dev chat https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/chat-window-countdown-to-next-dev-community-chat [3:46 PM]

whbob: @Jen: Thanks, thats what I was asking:) [3:46 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Sorry for taking up so much time and thanks Brourd for the hard questions [3:46 PM]

Elves: and also one for help button https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/chat-window-help-button [3:46 PM]

Elves: Jen it was really interesting, and I lost track of time myself :D it was great to see and share a bit, and I learned a lot from your questions Brourd, thank you [3:47 PM]

Brourd: No worries about the time, Jennifer. A more structured system of collaboration and sharing could be useful. [3:47 PM]

Elves: okay structure ahoy! Nando, take it away... [3:47 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: MachineElves and me are working on setting up some colaboation [3:47 PM]

Nando: well, I meant to present the thing I was hinting at in the last item of http://www.eternagame.org/web/blog/6175540/ [3:48 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Sorry I step back and hand Nando the mic [3:48 PM]

Elves: heheh [3:48 PM]

Nando: it is just a last minute addition that I incorporated just minutes before John pushed the build 116 to prod [3:49 PM]

jnicol: good timing :) [3:48 PM]

Elves: hahaha  [3:49 PM]

Nando: the simplest way is to demonstrate, I guess [3:49 PM]

Nando: so please guys, open http://www.eternagame.org/game/browse/6171039/ [3:49 PM]

Nando: pick a design and load it in the puzzle viewing [3:50 PM]

Elves: opened! :D [3:50 PM]

Nando: switch to PiP and natural mode, for good measure [3:50 PM]

Astromon: i have mine opend 2 [3:50 PM]

Astromon: Okay! [3:51 PM]

Nando: as you can see, the name of the design appears at the top [3:51 PM]

Astromon: Yay [3:51 PM]

Nando: now, please press 'D' [3:51 PM]

Astromon: d [3:51 PM]

Astromon: D [3:51 PM]

Astromon: is something suposed to happen? [3:52 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: cool [3:52 PM]

Nando: click on the puzzle astro, to give it the focus [3:52 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: so pressing U does the opposite [3:52 PM]

Nando: well guessed Jenn :) [3:52 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: :_) [3:52 PM]

Astromon: Oh great! [3:52 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: :-) [3:52 PM]

Astromon: awesome [3:52 PM]

jandersonlee: TANK YOU! THANK OU! THANK YOU!!!! [3:52 PM]

Nando: understand this: it's minimalistic and primitive, but I thought some players may find the feature useful [3:52 PM]

Brourd: A player like jandersonlee as an example? [3:53 PM]

Astromon: very [3:53 PM]

Astromon: indeed [3:53 PM]

Astromon: thanks for putting the submit button on the main ui also [3:53 PM]

Nando: the future for me is to associate these shortcuts with graphical elements, and expand them eventually [3:53 PM]

Elves: so this is the next / previous button?!?! :D :D :D [3:54 PM]

Nando: by the way, if you have inputs as to where to put buttons, and how they should look like, please PM [3:54 PM]

jandersonlee: <<< and >>> [3:54 PM]

Elves: it's so cool to see the design morph as well [3:54 PM]

Nando: ah, forgot to mention, this will follow the filters and sorting you set in the design browser [3:54 PM]

Elves: ya on either side of the title perhaps? [3:54 PM]

jnicol: I like that you can filter the browse window and only view those deisgns, well done! [3:54 PM]

Elves: wow Nando thank you!! [3:54 PM]

jandersonlee: evn more awesome! [3:54 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: i agree that is even more awesome [3:55 PM]

AndrewKae: head explodes [3:54 PM]

Elves: hehehehe [3:55 PM]

Elves: round of applause for implementing much requested feature [3:55 PM]

jandersonlee: Eli will aprove I'm sure [3:55 PM]

Elves: yay!!!  [3:55 PM]

Nando: planned is also to acces descriptions and comments, and later, expand the lab results viewing similarly, specially with flourescence data [3:55 PM]

Nando: fluo* [3:55 PM]

jandersonlee: [CLAP][CLAP][CLAP] [3:55 PM]

Nando: flourescence was funny though :D [3:56 PM]

Nando: @JL: I thought a lot of you doing this ;) glad you like it [3:56 PM]

Elves: super cool thank you very much Nando [3:56 PM]

jandersonlee: your efforts are much appreciated [3:56 PM]

Nando: yw guys [3:57 PM]

Nando: and again, this is not meant to stay just that way, but I suppose it's possibly already useful [3:57 PM]

Elves: omg how many clicks have been saved, and the loading time. very awesome. [3:58 PM]

Brourd: Anyway John, do you have anything important to present as we wrap up this dev chat? [3:59 PM]

Astromon: many [3:59 PM]

Nando: damn, I should have bought trackpad and touchpad companies shares :P [3:59 PM]

Astromon: and less movment of the mouse [3:59 PM]

jnicol: nothing important, just a roadmap update [3:59 PM]

Elves: i have one quick plug for the license thread, there are some additional factors I need to post still, and in the meantime, if anyone has perspective or wants to voice support for the inclusion of human rights... [3:59 PM]

...in the license for example, please feel welcome to join the conversation

Elves: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/-official-dev-chat-followup-input-on-a-new-license-for-eterna-content [3:59 PM]

Nando: ok, that's all I had, giving back the mic [3:59 PM]

hoglahoo: hey you're supposed to drop the mic and walk away [4:00 PM]

whbob: Thanks Nando:) [4:01 PM]

Brourd: Indeed, it appears that hoglahoo now has his shiny new badges. Thank you John and Nando for filling in as the official representatives of the Eterna development team today. [4:01 PM]

Elves: *screeeeeeech kerthud.... step step step step... le chill* [4:01 PM]

hoglahoo: so new so shiny [4:01 PM]

Brourd: Please tune in next week everybody for the player led development chat, or remain here to discuss Eterna initiatives further, or visit the forums to participate in the conversations there. [4:02 PM]

Elves: thanks everybody! [4:03 PM]

Nando: see you around guys [4:03 PM]

Brourd: The topics of conversation have not been decided as of yet, but I am sure they'll be riveting. [4:03 PM]

Elves: would you like to lead the chat Brourd? it is still open [4:03 PM]

Brourd: Nah, miracles are only allowed to happen on a case by case basis :P [4:04 PM]

Brourd: Later everybody. [4:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: later [4:04 PM]

Elves: ah, then you simply must order a case of miracles :) [4:04 PM]

Elves: by Jen, thanks again! [4:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: at lease a dozen [4:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: thanks Elves. I had fun. [4:04 PM]

Elves: me too! :) [4:05 PM]

Astromon: Thanks all great work seeyas late [4:05 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: was challenging getting grilled by Brourd. So many questions.. (not a bad thinf) [4:05 PM]

Elves: bye astro thanks for coming [4:05 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: by astro [4:05 PM]

Elves: bye Nando thanks again, mat will be super happy! [4:05 PM]

jandersonlee: Oh - I forgot - what's up with the labs? It seems we can submit to the prposed labs but it's not showing up as open? [4:06 PM]

Astromon: its open ow [4:07 PM]

Astromon: ^^ [4:07 PM]

jnicol: jandersonlee, are you using firefox? [4:06 PM]

Astromon: click on cloud labs [4:07 PM]

jandersonlee: @jnicol - yes [4:07 PM]

jnicol: you need to refresh [4:07 PM]

jnicol: firefox has an issue displaying current pages [4:07 PM]

jandersonlee: refresh is not enough [4:07 PM]

jnicol: clear cookies? [4:07 PM]

jandersonlee: probably [4:08 PM]

jnicol: I will put out a fix for this [4:07 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Cookies where? I want cookies! [4:08 PM]

jnicol: I have a chocolate chip cookie in my hand, soon to be in stomach :) [4:08 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: (Reaches through computer and steals it) [4:09 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: num num [4:09 PM]

jnicol: heh [4:08 PM]

jandersonlee: Clear cache does it. [4:09 PM]

jnicol: nice [4:09 PM]

jandersonlee: tqvm [4:09 PM]

Nando: @jnicol: please check my 'cache-control' commit from sep. 3rd [4:10 PM]

Nando: supposedly, it should address that issue [4:10 PM]

jnicol: you made changes in the .js files?  [4:11 PM]

Elves: transcript of dev chat: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/2015.09.11_Dev_Chat [4:12 PM]

Nando: if prod was only updated minutes ago, it can explain that JL's cache was still marked as 'store'  [4:12 PM]

Nando: hmm, the commit I'm talking about is a php source code  [4:13 PM]

Nando: other than that, I did remove .js files, because they are generated from coffee, and thus, shouldn't be versioned  [4:13 PM]

jnicol: correct, thats what I was going to say  [4:14 PM]

jnicol: didnt see the php, I will look later  [4:14 PM]

Nando: "great minds.." ;) :P  [4:15 PM]

Nando: ok, 1am here, I think I'm done, g'night folks  [4:16 PM]

jandersonlee: g'nite Nando - thanks again for your efforts! [4:16 PM]

Elves: night Nando! thanks again, you're awesome :) [4:16 PM]

Astromon: these new tools will work great when nupak actually works smoothly [4:17 PM]

Elves: one step at a time :D [4:20 PM]

Elves: okay back to work for me - see you next time everybody, and remember if you ever want to lead or present at community chat, you are welcome! [4:21 PM]

Astromon: thanks elvis [4:21 PM]

Astromon: nice chat and thanks for getting our ideas implamented [4:22 PM]

Elves: happy to help! thanks for coming and speaking up, each of us being here is what makes things happen :) [4:22 PM]

Astromon: aH tnx alot! seeya next time :) [4:24 PM]

Elves: :) :) :) cheers! [4:24 PM]