2015.08.28 Dev Chat
( Link back to Dev Chat archive )
On Linear Puzzle Progression, Chunking Lab UI, Sidequests, Scripting Libraries, Lab Bundles, Algorithmic Iterations, & Bundle Reviews
JenPearl: hi [2:58 PM]
bekeep: Hi all [2:58 PM]
bekeep: Not sure what other devs will be here for the chat [2:59 PM]
bekeep: Rhiju and Johan are at a microarray conference (I think) [2:59 PM]
Elves: hi! :) [2:59 PM]
bekeep: Hi Elves [2:59 PM]
JenPearl: I need to start getting into microrna but no time wiht my analysis stuff [3:00 PM]
JenPearl: hi Eleves [3:00 PM]
JenPearl: Elves!! [3:00 PM]
Elves: hi Jen! :) hi Ben! :D [3:00 PM]
Elves: hehehe [3:00 PM]
Nando: hi everyone [3:00 PM]
bekeep: I hear you [3:00 PM]
bekeep: Hi Nando [3:00 PM]
Elves: I know, my kingdom for a 26 hour day!! [3:00 PM]
Elves: hi Nando :) [3:00 PM]
rhiju: hi everyone! [3:01 PM]
rhiju: thanks for coming [3:01 PM]
Elves: yay Rhiju! [3:01 PM]
bekeep: Okay so I lied about Rhiju being gone [3:01 PM]
rhiju: i'm always here [3:01 PM]
JenPearl: hi Nando thanks for your help with my melt point questions [3:01 PM]
Brourd: I guess we can forgive you this time, bekeep. [3:01 PM]
JenPearl: yay Rhiju [3:02 PM]
Nando: @jenn: np [3:01 PM]
Elves: congrats jen on dpat3 :D [3:02 PM]
JenPearl: Thanks. I am so happy to hve a stable release with some analysis functions [3:02 PM]
Elves: hi Brourd! :) [3:02 PM]
JenPearl: *have a stable DPAT release [3:02 PM]
rhiju: thanks everyone who has been posting on getsat (including Jen on DPAT and other topics!) [3:02 PM]
JenPearl: :-) [3:03 PM]
JenPearl: Gona add melt plot stuff to DPAT and call it RAT [3:03 PM]
rhiju: on DPAT, we are having discussions about how to make dotplot use easier an dmore obvious in-game [3:03 PM]
rhiju: lol [3:03 PM]
Elves: yeah i'm really grateful for the long term nature of the forums, i feel so behind in catching up. it helps that the conversations are preserved & always in progress :D :D [3:03 PM]
rhiju: also, we are looking forward to seeing jen's designs in the next round based on insights from DPAT [3:03 PM]
bekeep: So I don't know if anyone has taken a look at the burgeoning puzzle progression [3:04 PM]
Elves: awesome, that's great news! [3:04 PM]
rhiju: paste the link! [3:04 PM]
JenPearl: yay! [3:04 PM]
bekeep: (sorry got caught behind) - yes great news [3:04 PM]
Elves: @ben i have had zero time this month but i did get a sneak peek and it looked beautiful [3:04 PM]
bekeep: aw.. thanks! There's still a lot of work to be done, but at least a skeleton is there [3:05 PM]
JenPearl: I havnt seen anyting for the puzzle progression stuff. [3:05 PM]
rhiju: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/new-puzzle-progression [3:05 PM]
bekeep: Here's a direct link to the google doc I'm currently working from [3:05 PM]
bekeep: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0IDmqi7zuAtMnVYMUpXYTRpSVU/view?usp=sharing [3:05 PM]
Elves: yeah, getting the categories in place is a great first step, and just having somewhere to plug in relevant pieces in order looked like a great approach [3:05 PM]
bekeep: Okay good [3:05 PM]
bekeep: reassuring to hear that [3:05 PM]
rhiju: @elves great point about getsat [3:06 PM]
rhiju: if LFP6 is here, he deserves a huge round of applause [3:06 PM]
bekeep: The image/descriptions are just links to my google drive stuff, which is just content [3:06 PM]
Elves: yay LFP6!!! wooohoooooo!!! thank you for all your hard work!! [3:06 PM]
LFP6: Sorry I'm late! [3:06 PM]
rhiju: he's not here, but definitely give him a virtual high five next time you encounter him [3:06 PM]
rhiju: dang! LFP6! [3:06 PM]
bekeep: Seriously LFP - nice work [3:06 PM]
LFP6: What did I miss, aside from apperant applause? :) [3:06 PM]
Elves: thanks Rhiju :) [3:06 PM]
Elves: hahaha [3:07 PM]
rhiju: *applause* [3:07 PM]
bekeep: It's just been applause [3:07 PM]
Elves: *applause* [3:07 PM]
Elves: *high fives* [3:07 PM]
Brourd: The puzzle progression you proposed seems to fulfill the standard needs, bekeep. [3:07 PM]
rhiju: getsat is soo much better [3:07 PM]
JenPearl: LFP6 is awsome! [3:07 PM]
JenPearl: I will look at the link for puzzle progressin later. Odnt want ot miss anything in chat [3:08 PM]
LFP6: What am I getting applause about again? :) [3:07 PM]
JenPearl: you being you [3:08 PM]
rhiju: i remember jen making a point that having a linear puzzle progression might prevent players from finding niches elsewhere in the eterna universe [3:08 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd Thanks - are there things you would add [3:08 PM]
JenPearl: @rhiju I said that at Eternacon [3:08 PM]
rhiju: @jen right at eternacon [3:08 PM]
Elves: @lfp6 updating forums, thank you kindly [3:09 PM]
rhiju: LFP6 I think made a similar point at eternacon [3:09 PM]
bekeep: Also - here's Sharif's draft of a new puzzle solved screen, with some info included [3:09 PM]
JenPearl: I worry that if it is too structuresd people will get bored [3:09 PM]
rhiju: while ben is pasting the new image link [3:09 PM]
bekeep: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0IDmqi7zuAtMnVYMUpXYTRpSVU/view?usp=sharing [3:09 PM]
LFP6: @Elves: Right! I'm just over halfway done now, after taking a break for a couple weeks. ;) [3:09 PM]
Elves: @jen / rhiju, yes I thought that was a good and interesting point too [3:09 PM]
bekeep: @JenPearl valid point [3:09 PM]
JenPearl: being able to fiddle and see what gets you going is good i think [3:09 PM]
rhiju: right @jen we're planning to have a rich mission accomplished screen like what ben is showing [3:09 PM]
Elves: that people find their specialty, and there are many niches in eterna [3:09 PM]
rhiju: althrough we will ask players to move on to the next puzzle, we will highlight on this screen the other stuff you can do on eterna as you unlock it [3:10 PM]
bekeep: I definitely don't want it to feel like a "going through the motions" or "here's us telling you what to do, now you go do it" [3:10 PM]
Elves: @lfp6 hehehe everything looks different to me as i've been nearly afk for this month [3:10 PM]
rhiju: and allow 'exit' from the puzzle progression [3:10 PM]
LFP6: The issue we have now is this: There are so many things in EteRNA that most people don't even know exists, or has any idea of how to use [3:10 PM]
RedSpah: hi elves [3:10 PM]
LFP6: And most are, honestly, horribly integrated together as far as UX [3:10 PM]
rhiju: so even early on, nova will not be part of the puzzle progression, but you'll be told about its awesomeness on this screen at the appropriate point. [3:11 PM]
bekeep: @LFP6 true [3:11 PM]
Elves: i think it will help if as someone pointed out we incorporate many kinds of activities into the progression, not only puzzles, but intro to scripting, other kinds of activities. [3:11 PM]
Elves: hi red!! :D [3:11 PM]
JenPearl: I did not know about micrrna until recently [3:11 PM]
RedSpah: Oh it's a dev talk [3:11 PM]
rhiju: and when you exit, you'll see a box guiding you to complete the nova tutorials to learn about science -- a 'sidequest' if you will [3:11 PM]
RedSpah: Hi devs [3:11 PM]
JenPearl: i like sidequests [3:11 PM]
rhiju: the main box will be the puzzle progression taking you to eterna-medicine. [3:11 PM]
LFP6: Sidequest, I like this! [3:11 PM]
JenPearl: I spend more time on them than the main quest when I can [3:12 PM]
Elves: i like the ability to exit idea, that gives back some sense of choice [3:12 PM]
LFP6: I'm going to put a thought out there, curious to the reaction [3:12 PM]
jnicol: Hi guys, I'm running a little late tonight [3:12 PM]
bekeep: Hmm... I think we could definitely add a few notes about scripting, but for people to learn scripting (especially with no programming experience) would require a separate module I think [3:12 PM]
rhiju: hey jnicol! [3:12 PM]
bekeep: (yes - sidequest) [3:12 PM]
JenPearl: so as you unlock a feature you can exit the pipeline and start taking on those challenges? [3:12 PM]
Brourd: Indeed, bekeep. [3:12 PM]
bekeep: Hey John! [3:12 PM]
LFP6: As a precursor, I think we already have a start with the roadmap. It just needs to be expanded to actually hold everything importent, and be a part of the 'flow' [3:12 PM]
bekeep: @ JenPearl - I think that's the idea, yes [3:13 PM]
Brourd: Scripting is not necessarily related to gameplay, and created a system for teaching scripting is a different problem unto itself. [3:13 PM]
RedSpah: there're a lot of js tuts online, documentation would be enough [3:13 PM]
JenPearl: vool [3:13 PM]
rhiju: @jen, yes -- you unlock the feature and you have the choice to exit and rock the sidequest [3:13 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd agreed [3:13 PM]
LFP6: @Red Then why is it not being used more now? [3:13 PM]
rhiju: @brourd agreed [3:13 PM]
JenPearl: Cool [3:13 PM]
LFP6: Playing Brourd for a moment here :) [3:13 PM]
RedSpah: people not being aware of its existence [3:13 PM]
LFP6: ^^ [3:13 PM]
LFP6: True [3:13 PM]
LFP6: An issue of UX integration, as I said [3:14 PM]
JenPearl: Maybe a bunch of example scripts taht work so people can learn by kludging [3:14 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 I got confused what was the thought you were going to challenge us with. [3:14 PM]
Elves: @ben & brourd, agreed scripting has too much depth to fit into same path mold as puzzles, if i think of a specific way for it to integrate with the puzzle UI will mention [3:14 PM]
LFP6: I have an idea for how to solve the issue (this is my thought) [3:14 PM]
RedSpah: and the fact that they can't see the reason to learn a programming language that may do 'something' in a online game [3:14 PM]
JenPearl: I learn programing by taking code tha works and moding it. [3:14 PM]
bekeep: Okay - I definitely think we can have an info screen about scripting, perhaps when we talk about Eternabot, etc. [3:14 PM]
rhiju: @nando do you want to mention progress on integrating scripts with puzzle solving? [3:14 PM]
LFP6: Make the UX reflective of your own personal 'lab' [3:14 PM]
Elves: i really liked the cookbook script recipe box in foldit [3:14 PM]
Elves: made it more gui accessible to non-scripters [3:15 PM]
JenPearl: I think sample scripts woudl be good [3:15 PM]
JenPearl: maybe a library? [3:15 PM]
bekeep: @Elves - I don't have experience with it, but sounds interesting [3:15 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 i love the idea of customizing UX to your personal lab needs. you want to skip school and code up the customization? [3:15 PM]
Elves: @ben info screen is a good compromise. then they can go down the rabbit hole if choosing and at least know it exists :D [3:15 PM]
LFP6: So when you enter, instead of seeing an activity feed (which it honestly doesn't even feel like atm) and your roadmap of things you've already done [3:15 PM]
bekeep: @Elves okay [3:15 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: I mean, I'd love to. Even have some conflicts in my schedule it would whisk away! :D [3:16 PM]
Elves: @ben ohhh check it out, if you love UI / UX puzzles, foldit is very informative, they have had an interesting evolution in meeting certain challenges [3:16 PM]
bekeep: @Elves I will! [3:16 PM]
JenPearl: di anyone think my idea was ok? [3:16 PM]
LFP6: But anyhow, in your own personal 'lab', it would be very clear the different things you could do [3:16 PM]
Brourd: The cookbook is not really teaching a player to script though. It's more or less providing access to scripts that alter the game. There should be ways to access the script code from within the game, sure, but it doesn't teach any basics of programming. [3:16 PM]
JenPearl: about the library of scripts [3:17 PM]
Elves: @Jen yes exactly, the foldit cookbook is like a library for scripts that anyone can use [3:16 PM]
LFP6: And it would guide you to being more productive [3:16 PM]
LFP6: As labs are built for work, so ideally the interface would be similar [3:17 PM]
bekeep: @Jen library? Yes - I think it would be a good idea [3:17 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd agreed [3:17 PM]
Elves: brourd good point on subtlety there, i think it would be great if the cookbook library allowed depth and access to actual code, but was still runnable without knowing how to code [3:17 PM]
Brourd: And Nando is working on that integration (as Rhiju just stated above) [3:17 PM]
JenPearl: @Elves I agree [3:18 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 that's a cool idea on having a personalized feed. [3:17 PM]
Nando: in terms of scripting, the direction I've explored is exemplified in http://nando.eternadev.org/game/puzzle/15841/ (when prompted, increase the number to 1500) [3:17 PM]
Elves: @brourd thanks! chat is going so fast i missed that [3:17 PM]
rhiju: were you proposing that each player could customize their feed (like a 'to do' list)? [3:18 PM]
LFP6: A library of basic scripts would be cool, but I don't think we even have complete documentation at this point, arguably more important [3:18 PM]
Elves: ahahah indeed :D [3:18 PM]
LFP6: @rhiju: Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking feed [3:18 PM]
rhiju: we were thinking instead of having one main activity (to playe the puzzle progression or monthly challenge) and then a list of open sidequests [3:18 PM]
Nando: this booster is currently "attached" to the puzzle, we need to come up with something that allows players to bookmark their favorite scripts [3:18 PM]
LFP6: Just the concept of a 'lab' with 'tools'/'projects' [3:18 PM]
rhiju: @lfp6 oh i see. [3:19 PM]
rhiju: that's a cool idea. [3:19 PM]
LFP6: Of course, it would make sense for an activity feed to be one thing on your lab dashboard [3:19 PM]
Brourd: Oh, you almost got me to run something in Flash on this machine, Nando. Clever :P [3:19 PM]
LFP6: Because that's what it would be. A portal. A dashboard. [3:19 PM]
Elves: @nando integrating scripts with puzzle solving?, that sounds awesome [3:19 PM]
LFP6: Useful AND a current design trend. :) [3:19 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 yes sweet a dashboard [3:20 PM]
rhiju: how about this -- as a new player, you would see sidequests [3:20 PM]
rhiju: like beoming a script master [3:20 PM]
rhiju: but when you achieve it, it becomes upgraded to a Tool [3:20 PM]
LFP6: Would it be impossible for a new player to see EteRNA Cell, for tutorials, then gradually 'zoom out' to the lab? [3:20 PM]
JenPearl: @rhiju I kinda like that [3:21 PM]
Elves: wait what now? dashboard portal ftw, that would also help with the wish to give linear approach to what is happening and how to participate [3:21 PM]
rhiju: and when you login you could feel the satisfaction of seeing the main problem (puzzle progression or lab puzzle), but also a panel of tools that you've earned [3:21 PM]
LFP6: That's an interesting idea Rhiju, I like it. Just needs an easy way to allow users already experienced with a certain area (ie JS basics) to take some sort of test and skip over it [3:21 PM]
Brourd: By tools, what do you mean? [3:22 PM]
JenPearl: i was going to tsay a backdoor [3:22 PM]
JenPearl: if you can anwere this riddle you can get it [3:22 PM]
rhiju: haha @LFP6 you're asking us to set up a college. [3:22 PM]
rhiju: @jen lol [3:22 PM]
LFP6: @Brourd: Various things you could 'use' [3:22 PM]
Elves: i think though in terms of having more people use scripts, that if they are a library of buttons that can be applied to active labs / puzzles, that more people will use them, as we don't all have time to learn... [3:22 PM]
...in depth how to code xyz
LFP6: @Rhiju: EteRNAU, except I want that to be the Wiki :) [3:22 PM]
Elves: yes i second brourd's question on what is a 'Tool'? [3:22 PM]
Brourd: And depending on what you mean by tools, we may not want to lock it behind a task like learning basic javascript. [3:22 PM]
rhiju: @brourd a list of scripts, access to the puzzle maker, access to challenge puzzles (as 'exercise') [3:23 PM]
rhiju: latter is probably not a 'tool', so have to think of a more general word [3:23 PM]
LFP6: Not sure that learning how to script should be required for runing them tho [3:23 PM]
Elves: yes i agree with brourd, we want tools to be usable by everyone [3:23 PM]
JenPearl: Tool would be something you use to help solve I think and other stuff is otehr stuff [3:23 PM]
JenPearl: or aid in solving [3:24 PM]
LFP6: I wouldn't limit it to that necessarily [3:23 PM]
LFP6: I used it as an abstraction [3:23 PM]
LFP6: That works with the idea of a lab [3:24 PM]
bekeep: @LFP6 Agreed - there will be plenty of people that should be able to run scripts. Actively writing might be far fewer. [3:24 PM]
LFP6: Some combination of a tool and a project is probabyl more apropriate [3:24 PM]
Brourd: You don't want some feature of the game to be locked behind a task unrelated to the game itself, imo. [3:24 PM]
LFP6: Oh, no, of course not [3:24 PM]
JenPearl: @Brourd I agree [3:25 PM]
Elves: as people run scripts, they will get a better understanding of the usefulness and ideas for what they might want to write or customize, and get inspired to learn more. [3:24 PM]
bekeep: Agreed [3:24 PM]
LFP6: As I said, my analogy was less than perfect [3:25 PM]
Elves: so making it possible to run scripts without knowing how to code, will be like a ramp up to doing more later [3:25 PM]
rhiju: generalizing @LFP6's dashboard proposal, perhaps other resources that are in the menu could instead become dashboard items. [3:25 PM]
rhiju: like getsat/forums [3:25 PM]
Elves: and enable a lot of people who will simply never have time or inclination [3:25 PM]
rhiju: you could unlock it in a sidequest [3:25 PM]
bekeep: @Elves - Yes, that makes sense [3:25 PM]
Elves: dashboard would be awesomesauce [3:25 PM]
rhiju: and then it would show up in your screen when you log in as a panel to access [3:25 PM]
LFP6: Btw, can we agree to get rid of the huge amount of challenge puzzles? It's honestly a waste of time and energy, having almost no use (especially with the new progression). It has WAY to much focus [3:25 PM]
Elves: i think someone just mentioned our roadmap page was meant to be like that, but it's mostly static. so it could be repurposed [3:26 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: Sure! [3:26 PM]
rhiju: @elves @LFP6 we get the point on scripts not being the primary thing on the dashboard. [3:26 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 yup, i alluded to this -- we think challenge puzzles should become a sidequest [3:26 PM]
Brourd: We should probably remove all the player puzzles as well, if that's the case, LFP6 :) [3:26 PM]
rhiju: bc we want folks to focus their attention on making the best possible designs for eterna medicine [3:27 PM]
Elves: hehehe [3:27 PM]
Brourd: Indeed, Rhiju. [3:27 PM]
hoglahoo: if you take those away you'll have to replace them with something at least as fun [3:27 PM]
rhiju: well, we won't remove any puzzles. [3:27 PM]
hoglahoo: or else people will be sad [3:27 PM]
JenPearl: I agree [3:27 PM]
Elves: yep if the focus of the dashboard were to primarily get players engaged with labs, and supplement with supportive tutorials / walkthroughs that teach relevant skills and tools, then i would feel oriented [3:27 PM]
JenPearl: wiht hog [3:27 PM]
rhiju: there are some folks who are contributing in a major way to eterna bycreating and solving those puzzles. [3:27 PM]
LFP6: @B: Player puzzles aren't as enticing as challenge puzzles. 100 points each, and not pointed to as a part of the current puzzle progression, except for after finishing the challenge puzzles. :P [3:27 PM]
bekeep: Mat had earlier suggested making them an archive and unlocking the challenge puzzles at some point (and player puzzles) [3:27 PM]
rhiju: and we want to write more papers harnessing those players' insights (i'm thinking of red, hog, jmf, etc.) [3:28 PM]
bekeep: @hoglahoo @Jen Gotcha, yep. [3:28 PM]
rhiju: and i'd hope they continue to play eterna and help us [3:28 PM]
Elves: i hear that 'unlocking' features and sets of content is a way perhaps to motivate players, but i think another approach is enabling them to do the lab research by giving them all these tools and access up... [3:29 PM]
...front, and the reward being getting medicine made and papers published
rhiju: @LFP6 want to point out that several (most?) of the new puzzle progression are drawn from challenges. [3:29 PM]
LFP6: I would suggest though that the idea of a screen with 'next puzzle' is probably not useful going forward [3:29 PM]
bekeep: I think there's always going to be a place for creating puzzles [3:29 PM]
rhiju: *oop i meant 'drawn from player puzzles' [3:29 PM]
bekeep: not challenges - player puzzles [3:29 PM]
bekeep: @LFP6 You mean when playing challenge puzzles? [3:29 PM]
mat747: Hi all [3:29 PM]
rhiju: that's a super-important area of eterna -- a kind of laboratory of its own. [3:29 PM]
bekeep: Hi Mat [3:29 PM]
JenPearl: I never use next puzzle [3:30 PM]
rhiju: hi mat! [3:30 PM]
Elves: also tiny note to say wow, it's already been 30 minutes.. any agenda items we need to address or be aware of? [3:30 PM]
bekeep: @rhiju agreed [3:30 PM]
bekeep: haha [3:30 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: Yeah, but currently, players are enticed to go through all the challenges before doing anything else, and the current challenges can basically be solved almost the exact same way and have next to no importance [3:29 PM]
rhiju: @jen lol, you are one sophisticated gamer. [3:30 PM]
rhiju: @elves lol [3:30 PM]
JenPearl: I always go in order of number people solved [3:31 PM]
Elves: @jen hahaha [3:30 PM]
bekeep: @LFP6 Yep. [3:30 PM]
JenPearl: Gives me aslow solid progression [3:31 PM]
bekeep: @Jen Fewest first? [3:31 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 right -- we're envisioning sidequests of solving challenge puzzles. [3:31 PM]
LFP6: @bekeep: Well, my thought is that once you hit tutorials, you will go on to challenges. Then player puzzles. And never hit anything else [3:31 PM]
bekeep: : ) [3:31 PM]
rhiju: and sidequests for making them [3:31 PM]
LFP6: And I think that is what most probably do [3:31 PM]
LFP6: Because that's 'the game' [3:31 PM]
RedSpah: there're like literally less than 15 challenge puzzles that force you to think [3:31 PM]
bekeep: The order is like this: puzzle progression to get into the lab; labs [3:31 PM]
JenPearl: @bekeep yep least amount of people solved first [3:31 PM]
bekeep: (and challenge puzzles and player puzzles are on the side [3:31 PM]
JenPearl: I knocked out 10 of the 1000 poitn challenge puzzles in like 10-20 minutes [3:32 PM]
rhiju: @bekeep except for players like jen, she can just do sidequests [3:32 PM]
JenPearl: with my new account since I couldnt acces the labs [3:32 PM]
bekeep: With only one finger [3:32 PM]
rhiju: there would always be the choice of finding a separate niche [3:32 PM]
Brourd: Perhaps we should look at some additional "sidequests" as well. [3:32 PM]
JenPearl: by the way is there a statius of the Facebook thing? [3:33 PM]
Elves: my main challenge in doing labs is still the time investment. if i could know how to spend 5 minutes at a time, then it would be easier to participate. but as it is, it feels like i need 1-3 hours just to get... [3:33 PM]
...started. so chunking labs into concrete steps, would make it easier for me personally
LFP6: Just as a thought, I'm thinking that all projects/tools/'pieces of eterna' should all lead back to and be integrated with the lab & total eterna experience as much as possible [3:33 PM]
LFP6: So when completing a chellenge puzzle, to not just be given more challenge puzzles [3:33 PM]
Nando: @jen: John and I are on it, gotta test things on dev first, make sure it works as expected [3:33 PM]
LFP6: But a more open view of 'the lab' [3:33 PM]
JenPearl: @nando. Cool thanks1 [3:34 PM]
bekeep: hmmm [3:33 PM]
bekeep: @Elves [3:33 PM]
Brourd: Bring together a number of the top researchers in RNA science who understand all of the problems and potential behind it, and give informal "sidequests" to players to come up with ways to solve said problems using the Eterna UI. [3:33 PM]
Elves: like player puzzles aren't just easier for the points, but also for only taking seconds or minutes to complete [3:34 PM]
bekeep: @Elves - that's a very interesting point [3:34 PM]
LFP6: And when working on them, it should be in the context of 'the lab' and you should easily be able to switch to other portions of it [3:33 PM]
Elves: @ben yes consider your linear walkthru approach as applied to a single labs session [3:34 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd that's an interesting idea. Rhiju is afk, but he might have some ideas about that [3:34 PM]
LFP6: And Rhiju's mention of making your dashboard more customizable is quite an interesting one. Just needs to be in such a way that users don't customize themselves into a hole [3:34 PM]
Elves: @Brourd I love that idea!! [3:35 PM]
Elves: that would really keep us moving forward and aware of real world challenges and opportunities relevant to our researh [3:35 PM]
Elves: *c [3:35 PM]
JenPearl: I would spend wome time each day or week doing stuff for Brourds idea [3:36 PM]
bekeep: Agreed [3:36 PM]
JenPearl: *spend some time [3:36 PM]
LFP6: Seems like an interesting approach that could work well [3:36 PM]
Brourd: Harnessing that puzzlemaking and puzzle solving ability for tasks that may be unrelated to Eterna medicine, but are still relevant to gameplay, may provide players with easier and tangible goals. [3:37 PM]
LFP6: Important, definitely [3:37 PM]
JenPearl: You cant work on the same thing all the time. You need to give your brain a break [3:38 PM]
Elves: @ben regarding chunking labs, if there were a linear 'next' style progression that saved my place and guided me through steps, then it would be easier and less intimidating to get started [3:38 PM]
Brourd: In a sense, the logic gate puzzles are quite difficult, and it's a tough sell to require a player to spend time on any of them. [3:38 PM]
bekeep: @Elves Got it. That's really helpful [3:38 PM]
LFP6: And I'll mention again my suggestion of having 'levels' of labs [3:38 PM]
JenPearl: I want to work on those next. [3:38 PM]
LFP6: Foldit actually does that [3:38 PM]
JenPearl: logic gates [3:38 PM]
Brourd: Lab levels are far more difficult to implement, LFP6. [3:38 PM]
LFP6: Just having 'easy' 'intermediate' and 'advanced' tags? [3:38 PM]
rhiju: @elves, yes we are planning to chunk labs -- each one woudl have several easy puzzles that you would solve before getting to the 'big boss' where your designs might actually be synthesized [3:39 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd that's fair. They are difficult. [3:39 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 I think all the labs will be advanced. [3:39 PM]
Brourd: Indeed [3:39 PM]
JenPearl: @Rhiju so there would be some "Easier" labs for people to learn on? [3:40 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: I see that as a potential problem. Users may never even look at the labs at that point. :P [3:40 PM]
JenPearl: And will people get to have that sythed [3:40 PM]
Nando: but using past labs and eternabot, we may be able to create "make up" labs for newcomers [3:40 PM]
LFP6: There should be some easier labs provided (@JenPearl), hopefulyl that could still have some value aside from learning and acclimation [3:40 PM]
Brourd: It's not really a matter of learning at this point. In reality. we may need to implement a randomized puzzle solving algorithm for players to use as starting points on these logic gate puzzles. [3:40 PM]
LFP6: @Brourd Then what do the users do? [3:41 PM]
LFP6: At that point, users will need some specific instruction and tools [3:41 PM]
LFP6: More than we have now or sure [3:41 PM]
JenPearl: But having a tanglible return on investment early one may keep players around [3:41 PM]
Brourd: True, Nando. They won't be relevant to the experimental pipeline, but it will be relevant to teaching decent strategies for 2nd degree structure. [3:41 PM]
rhiju: @jen @lfp6 there will be only one lab [3:41 PM]
JenPearl: I worry havint hard labs and no "Easy" ones will make some players not feel really rewarded [3:42 PM]
LFP6: @JenPearl True. And without challenges, you're left with advanced labs. Not real great. [3:41 PM]
Elves: @brourd that is interesting approach, actually like foldit's wiggle function but for RNA switches... use the algorithm to shake the RNA into possible sequences, and tweak from there? [3:42 PM]
rhiju: but the lab will have a progression of puzzles from easy to hard [3:42 PM]
Brourd: I assume they click a button, LFP6. Another option is to use an example from foldit and have 30-40 randomized solutions that a player can "potentialy" start with. [3:42 PM]
LFP6: @BRourd: But where do they go from there? Analyse the solution and find improvements? Current players have very little ability to do that [3:42 PM]
JenPearl: @rhiju so there woul dbe multple puzzles to design in one lab at a time [3:43 PM]
Elves: i think we have a greater strength in puzzle solving by combining what computers do well ( iterations ) with what we do well ( specific modifications ) [3:43 PM]
bekeep: @Elves Agreed. [3:43 PM]
rhiju: @LFP6 @brourd right there would be tools available to make sure that everyone who has played to that point can solve the labs [3:43 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: So basically do we get rid of the idea of 'projects' and just have rounds? [3:43 PM]
Elves: offload the tedium onto the machine, and players can spend their limited time and energy finding patterns in the returned data, and tweaking accordingly [3:44 PM]
rhiju: And indeed, we will allow each player to have one 'freebie' sequence that is most definitely synthesized. [3:44 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: They also need to be able to do something worthwile, and feel like they accomplished something [3:44 PM]
JenPearl: cool I like the one freebee [3:44 PM]
Brourd: Well, there is a dichotomy there, LFP6. [3:44 PM]
rhiju: to gain more, you'd have to get involved in the process of submitting more solutions and thinking about them and talking about them, via the bundling that we've been discussing on getsat [3:44 PM]
Brourd: It takes approximately 15 minutes to solve a logic gate problem from scratch. [3:44 PM]
JenPearl: honestly i only stuck wiht Eterna early on becasue I had RNA being made at Stanford. How much cooler could things have been! [3:45 PM]
Elves: hahaha Jen :D [3:45 PM]
rhiju: @jen now everyone can get that feeling [3:45 PM]
JenPearl: nice [3:45 PM]
Brourd: By hand, +/- 10 minutes depending on luck and if the strategy is foolproof. [3:45 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: What about the idea of 'unlocking' a couple more slots by completing various things? [3:45 PM]
rhiju: ooh interesting idea. [3:45 PM]
JenPearl: As longa s people get to have things synthesises I am cool with it....for now [3:46 PM]
Brourd: An algorithm that I developed and that Nando created a simple script for solves the same problem in ~100 iterations, or less than 2 minutes with a decent machine. [3:46 PM]
Elves: the barrier of entry is huge primarily due to this time investment brourd mentioned. i would love to help but i simply literally don't have that much time [3:46 PM]
JenPearl: sythesized [3:46 PM]
rhiju: @elves that's a good point [3:46 PM]
rhiju: i think we have to admit that eterna is not really a casual game [3:46 PM]
Elves: if we can automate the time consuming part of coming up with iterations, then apply our time in targeted maximally useful ways, that would make it easier for me to participate [3:46 PM]
rhiju: @elves that's a good point. [3:47 PM]
bekeep: That makes sense [3:47 PM]
rhiju: i think i just said the same thing twice [3:47 PM]
Elves: hehehe [3:47 PM]
rhiju: oops [3:47 PM]
LFP6: And I'll go back to my previous comments about groups. If we make them mroe project-oriented, using the 'lab' mentality, it would make so much sense for them to be like working groups where you can all contribute to some specific approach or goal [3:47 PM]
JenPearl: lol [3:47 PM]
Nando: we can only guide and help up to a certain point, the lab is research [3:47 PM]
rhiju: elves makes a lot of good points [3:47 PM]
hoglahoo: in the past it seemed acceptable for casual users to come solve a few puzzles in their free time, and make a large quantity of mindless or simple modifications in lab. the more lab savvy members could come along later and analyze [3:47 PM]
Brourd: I believe that was my suggestion :P [3:47 PM]
Nando: it's riding at the limit of current human knowledge [3:47 PM]
Elves: thank you kindly :D [3:47 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: My dad actually plays a bit BECAUSE he finds it relaxing. O_o [3:47 PM]
LFP6: Partially [3:47 PM]
rhiju: @lfp6 lol [3:48 PM]
Brourd: Casual v hardcore does not define the ability to relax, LFP6 :) [3:48 PM]
LFP6: @Hog True [3:48 PM]
rhiju: look, i think we can guarantee that even casual players will be able to make contributions to the lab through their freebies. [3:48 PM]
JenPearl: I agree [3:48 PM]
LFP6: @B: But having no relaxing elements and only being about work makes it like a job, and no longer a game, which is fun [3:48 PM]
Brourd: Some players may find a game like Starcraft to be relaxing. [3:48 PM]
rhiju: bc i bet that at least some of the winners from each round will come from freebies [3:49 PM]
JenPearl: every bit of data is data [3:49 PM]
Elves: @Brourd thanks and sorry I'm having trouble keeping up with reading all the comments. that's very cool, that you & Nando made an algorithm that can produce 100 iterations in 2 minutes, wow!! [3:49 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd I do! [3:49 PM]
LFP6: @B lol true [3:48 PM]
JenPearl: more data is better in this stuff i think [3:49 PM]
jandersonlee: Brourd has a point : we need to help people to find pattens in lab results [3:49 PM]
rhiju: i remember in early days of eterna some of the winning solutions came from people submitting for the first time [3:49 PM]
rhiju: hi @jandersonlee! [3:49 PM]
JenPearl: maybe a fresh eye [3:50 PM]
Astromon: maybe a pre cloud lab for training [3:50 PM]
bekeep: @jandersonlee Agreed. [3:50 PM]
JenPearl: hi janderssonlee and astromon [3:50 PM]
jandersonlee: or was it hoglahoo...? [3:50 PM]
JenPearl: help finding patterns is good [3:50 PM]
rhiju: if we have lab bundles, that should make learning of patterns more natural for new players -- since they'll be able to see what patterns were being tested by previous submitters. [3:50 PM]
Brourd: Exactly, which is part of the motivation for playing games in the first place. That feeling of unwinding one gets while participating in a task. [3:50 PM]
jandersonlee: also more votes - I ran out of 8 fast! [3:51 PM]
LFP6: Just for my own information, does it seem like a good diea to have the UX centered in a 'lab' with various things you can do, then combining into 'working groups' with their own lab spaces to work on whatever it is they were created to do? [3:51 PM]
jandersonlee: and allow double voting on things you really like [3:51 PM]
Brourd: It's not necessarily in finding patterns, or in solving an incredibly difficult problem. What the lab has to do is make solving the problem accessible. [3:51 PM]
Astromon: the labs arent so hard with a little hard work and patients [3:52 PM]
Brourd: Right now, taking an hour to solve a problem for research is not accessible. [3:52 PM]
rhiju: @jandersonlee haha good point about the 8 slots. [3:52 PM]
LFP6: @JL Like the idea of choosing to give multiple votes [3:52 PM]
rhiju: or 8 votes [3:52 PM]
rhiju: another option is to allow people to give star rankings to bundles, like yelp or amazon reviews [3:52 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd Yep - agreed. [3:52 PM]
JenPearl: im excited for bundles [3:53 PM]
Brourd: Having a computer fil in the blanks to bring the time spent within ~10 minutes is accessible. [3:52 PM]
Elves: i want to click on the labs button in the menu, click no more than one or two more times to choose a lab, and immediately be doing something that 5-10 minutes later i can close my computer and come back to at... [3:53 PM]
...a later time with my progress saved, or ideally task completed
bekeep: @Brourd @Elves Got it [3:53 PM]
LFP6: As I said, as long as the player has a strong idea of what they need to do from there, as my current approach is 'just solve it' :) [3:53 PM]
JenPearl: @ Elves I like that [3:53 PM]
Astromon: yeah an integration of bot w/ the creative aspect of us players [3:53 PM]
Brourd: Having a lab come with preloaded, randomized solutions that were generated beforehand allows any player to access it, but there would need to be a distanc constraint on submission. [3:53 PM]
Astromon: good plan brourd [3:54 PM]
jandersonlee: i do most of my lab work as mods [3:53 PM]
Elves: @Brourd these are really helpful ideas, thanks! [3:54 PM]
syang: I like these ideas, especially the plans for all the bundles [3:54 PM]
Elves: thanks Jen :D & Ben hehehe [3:54 PM]
LFP6: And perhaps have the scripting interface be a little more accessable for script users, beyond puzzle solving. Currently it looks intimidating with all that code, and not inviting to find a useful tool. [3:54 PM]
rhiju: @elves let's try to answer your challenge [3:54 PM]
rhiju: scripting is probably going to always be intimidating [3:54 PM]
Elves: woohoo! [3:55 PM]
Astromon: i want the middle scrol button to go back one MOVE [3:55 PM]
LFP6: I'm also hoping to make a library that scripts could use to create a nice interface for scripts like that, but what's currently there is currently a bit much for most, I'd guess [3:55 PM]
rhiju: how about with every new lab, your fist activity will of course be to play the lab progression [3:55 PM]
rhiju: and get to your freebie [3:55 PM]
rhiju: at which you get fireworks [3:55 PM]
rhiju: of course [3:55 PM]
Astromon: IT TAKES TOO MUCH TIME TO GO DOWN AND PRESS THE BK ARROW [3:55 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: Well, I'm talking more about presentation fo the scripts to non-scripting users [3:55 PM]
Astromon: sry caps [3:55 PM]
jandersonlee: having to score 94 to pass the lab is too much [3:55 PM]
rhiju: @astromon agreed -- we are working on that. [3:55 PM]
jandersonlee: at least at first [3:55 PM]
Astromon: awesome thasnks [3:56 PM]
Elves: what's this about fireworks now? sparkles always help. always. :D [3:56 PM]
rhiju: @astromon we are actually tryitng to recruit player devs to help with that. player devs who know how to make awesome lab browsers. [3:56 PM]
rhiju: but i can't reveal details [3:56 PM]
rhiju: @elves, back to your challenge [3:56 PM]
Astromon: yes fireworks for each design submitted.. :D [3:56 PM]
Eized: rip bubbles [3:56 PM]
Brourd: I don't think LFP6 will quit school to work on Eterna though. [3:56 PM]
LFP6: Oh, btw... Chunk loading of lab submissions would probably be a good diea so it doesn't take an hour and a hlaf for the page to load :P [3:56 PM]
JenPearl: I like programming and can learn any language [3:56 PM]
Astromon: with random colors [3:56 PM]
LFP6: @Brourd I wish :P [3:56 PM]
JenPearl: I wouldlike to help with coding [3:57 PM]
rhiju: we want to encourage pattern-recognizing players to review labs and ideas [3:56 PM]
Elves: lol eized no no bubbles *and* fireworks. [3:57 PM]
Astromon: i am very good with patterns [3:57 PM]
jandersonlee: so make it easier to review lab results [3:56 PM]
Eized: that's where the lab tutorials "coming soon" come in [3:57 PM]
Astromon: so ive been told I might want to look into the data part of eterna sometime [3:57 PM]
rhiju: so what if we piped lab bundles for players to review [3:57 PM]
Elves: @rhiju ahhh are you thinking a stepped review of previous labs? [3:57 PM]
rhiju: in particular, bundles that had not yet received many ratings yet and could use feedback and comments. [3:57 PM]
Elves: so it would load solutions and you would review them and vote or leave a comment? [3:58 PM]
rhiju: @elves, i think it would load lab bundles [3:58 PM]
rhiju: or show you all current bundles, ordered by the ones that have fewest rating to most ratings [3:58 PM]
rhiju: (by default) [3:58 PM]
JenPearl: @Rhiju would this be like a commitie and everyone would give there thoughts on it> [3:59 PM]
rhiju: yes. i didn't want to say it. but it would be like a review committee. [3:59 PM]
Astromon: we might want to put a sumit button back on the ui for faster mods of my designs [3:59 PM]
JenPearl: sorry for forcing you [3:59 PM]
Astromon: our* [3:59 PM]
rhiju: =) [3:59 PM]
Brourd: While there is a certain degree of affinity that I have for the idea of bundling solutions, it takes a long time to make one solution. The amount of time to make a bundle of so.utions sounds daunting. [3:59 PM]
JenPearl: @Brourd not if there are teams [3:59 PM]
rhiju: @brourd, we could have some scripts available for automatically making certain bundles [3:59 PM]
rhiju: like all single mutants [3:59 PM]
Astromon: two clicks is to much imho [3:59 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: I would support using bundles as a way to make EteRNA function more like actual research, something I think you were kinda getting at. I'm not sure how much, for example, a 'rating' really works with where we're heading, because I'm not sure what we're trying to say about the submission (both good and bad solutions could be valuable to research, as an example) [3:59 PM]
JenPearl: I agree wiht LFP6 [4:00 PM]
Elves: yes good points all [4:00 PM]
Astromon: you could make the icons a bit smaller to fit in the submit button [4:00 PM]
bekeep: @LFP6 - yes if we used a rating it would have to be well definied [4:00 PM]
rhiju: the reason to have the ratings is that we are planning for a future where we will be getting 5x to 10x the number of designs for each lab puzzle [4:00 PM]
Elves: i would like to see bundles as concrete clusters of hypothesis testing [4:00 PM]
rhiju: and so we'll have to vote [4:00 PM]
Brourd: Indeed, such as mutations to observe the active part so the RNA bundles. [4:00 PM]
rhiju: and further we want to have evaluation of ideas before they are tested [4:00 PM]
Elves: that could each be iterated mostly automatically [4:00 PM]
JenPearl: I think bundles is great for teams [4:01 PM]
jandersonlee: To review a bundle there needs to be a quick way to switch between sequences/dotplots [4:00 PM]
LFP6: @Rhiju: So what we'd really be voting on is which hypothesis we want tested? [4:00 PM]
rhiju: also, i'd propose that we have a period in which bundle proposers can fine-tune their bundles in respones to feedback [4:01 PM]
LFP6: Or approach, or whatever the reason is behind the bundle [4:01 PM]
rhiju: so then we're sending out best bundles forward into synthesis... [4:01 PM]
Brourd: Well, here is a question. What goes into a bundle review? [4:01 PM]
rhiju: (along with a zillion freebies) [4:01 PM]
rhiju: hey we have to go... [4:01 PM]
Brourd: Does the reviewer have to look at every sequence to make sure every solution follows the constraints of the bundle? [4:01 PM]
JenPearl: @Rhiju I like that [4:01 PM]
Elves: @Brourd good questions [4:01 PM]
jandersonlee: add a next/prev seqeunce tpo the lab tool? [4:01 PM]
rhiju: @brourd, no they can look at a 140-character summary [4:02 PM]
LFP6: Just for my own information, does it seem like a good diea to have the UX centered in a 'lab' with various things you can do, then combining into 'working groups' with their own lab spaces to work on whatever it is they were created to do? [4:01 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd that would be burdensome [4:02 PM]
rhiju: of the entire bundle [4:02 PM]
syang: Would all the players who have access to lab be able to rate, or is it just the more experienced who have analyzed the data? [4:02 PM]
Elves: @Rhiju & @Bekeep thank you for the dev chat! [4:02 PM]
Brourd: Right, but any player can write a summary of a lab hypothesis. I've done it 4 times this week alone :) [4:02 PM]
jandersonlee: I would think all players - like all players can vote [4:02 PM]
JenPearl: Thanks Rhiju and Ben [4:03 PM]
JenPearl: Bekeep [4:03 PM]
jandersonlee: but perhaps some ratings might be more valued than others - based on past prediction performance? [4:03 PM]
bekeep: Thank you guys! [4:03 PM]
Elves: @janderson yes!!! next prev buttons in lab!!! :D :D :D [4:03 PM]
Elves: lol [4:03 PM]
bekeep: Sorry our time is running so short [4:03 PM]
Brourd: Thanks Rhiju and Ben. We'll see you guys two weeks from now I guess. [4:03 PM]
Elves: no worries, it was a great discussion, thank you!! [4:03 PM]
Astromon: take care [4:03 PM]
Astromon: great work [4:04 PM]
Brourd: By the way, where are those survey results at? [4:04 PM]
AndrewKae: nice work bekeep, JenPearl, LFP6 and more than I can mention [4:04 PM]
Elves: yes, round of applause to everyone, thanks for all your efforts :D [4:04 PM]
JenPearl: :-) [4:04 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd - that's totally on me [4:04 PM]
LFP6: Yes, thanks to many! [4:04 PM]
bekeep: @Brourd - next week I will have something [4:04 PM]
LFP6: And all [4:04 PM]
jandersonlee: thanks all - break is over. back to work! [4:04 PM]
bekeep: Thanks everyone! [4:05 PM]
Elves: hehehe indeed [4:05 PM]
bekeep: Rhiju says bye! [4:05 PM]
JenPearl: work ugghhhhhh [4:05 PM]
Brourd: Nice, I look forward to the qualitative analysis of players! [4:05 PM]
Elves: bye!! [4:05 PM]
JenPearl: uhhhhgg [4:05 PM]
Elves: lol brourd [4:05 PM]
bekeep: lol [4:05 PM]
LFP6: I'll make a GetSat post aobut my 'lab' UX idea.... I'm interested in thoughts on it [4:05 PM]
Brourd: Although, there was only one question we had to write for, if I recall correctly. :( [4:05 PM]
JenPearl: i gota get bakc to work myself. see you all later [4:06 PM]
Elves: awesome LFP6, I look forward to it [4:06 PM]
Elves: bye Jen! great to see you :) [4:06 PM]
syang: great discussion all :D [4:06 PM]
Elves: thanks for coming syang! [4:06 PM]
JenPearl: thanks Elves. Good to see you too. BTW, ive started to look at the labs I am analyzing with DPAT 24 deg C and it looks inersting [4:07 PM]
Brourd: Time to go drown in a pool of textbooks and paper. Later. [4:06 PM]
syang: thanks :) [4:06 PM]
JenPearl: may draw out my analysis a bit more [4:07 PM]
LFP6: Enjoy B :) [4:06 PM]
Elves: hahah take care Brourd, happy studying! [4:07 PM]
Elves: @Jen cool, I'm looking forward to getting caught up [4:07 PM]
JenPearl: bye afk [4:07 PM]
Elves: bye! :) [4:07 PM]
syang: bye Jen [4:07 PM]
