2015.07.31 Dev Chat

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On TB Sensors, Collaboration, Lab Sequence Bundling, & License

rhiju: hey everyone.  [2:55 PM]

rhiju: i;m a little early  [2:55 PM]

Brourd: Given there were 12000+ sequences submitted in this round, John has to decide which solutions are on the chopping block.  [2:56 PM]

rhiju: will have to take a short break for 10 mins because of a thing at the conference  [2:56 PM]

jandersonlee: pass teh worms  [2:56 PM]

Brourd: Hello, rhiju.  [2:56 PM]

Brourd: Jandersonlee  [2:56 PM]

rhiju: hi brourd  [2:56 PM]

jandersonlee: (early bird..) Hi Brourd  [2:56 PM]

rhiju: heard you solved the test XOR puzzle. congrats!  [2:56 PM]

rhiju: hi jandersonlee  [2:57 PM]

LFP6: Hi Rhiju  [2:57 PM]

jandersonlee: Hello Rhiju  [2:57 PM]

Brourd: I currently have two solutions, using a similar concept of competitive binding. The same conclusion Nando had for his solution.  [2:57 PM]

rhiju: nice [2:58 PM]

jandersonlee: Isn't there enough capacity to rumm all 12000? [2:58 PM]

rhiju: there are some similarities of your solution strategies to the two 'landing site' strategy described by eli on the february XOR challenge [2:58 PM]

rhiju: there may be only one way to do it [2:58 PM]

LFP6: *Resists starting 10 second countdown* [2:59 PM]

Brourd: Perhaps. The issue with competitive binding is that there needs to be some sequence string that both oligos must be able to bind to. [3:00 PM]

Elves: hello everybody :) [3:01 PM]

rhiju: hi elves! hi everyone! [3:01 PM]

vineetkosaraju: ooh rainbow :) [3:01 PM]

Elves: hehehe [3:01 PM]

rhiju: :) [3:01 PM]

rhiju: here's what I had for the agenda, roughly in order of urgency: [3:01 PM]

rhiju: On the agenda:+ eterna-cell & eterna-medicine!+ dev chat timing+ leveraging software volunteers+ input on a new license (foldit like)+ help shaping puzzles into tutorials+ new about page+ additional getsat review+ new team/vote play --> 'bundles'+ invitation to write a review on big data, screens, neuroscience.+ eterna, Eterna, or EteRNA?+ using social media (FB/Twitter) [3:01 PM]

LFP6: Hey Elves [3:01 PM]

rhiju: oh that doesn't look formatted well [3:01 PM]

rhiju: here is a link to agenda: http://eternagame.org/web/news/6062833/ [3:02 PM]

Brourd: Hello, machinelves. [3:02 PM]

Brourd: Where would you like to start, Rhiju? [3:02 PM]

jandersonlee: or elvish proxy ;) [3:02 PM]

Nando: hi everyone [3:02 PM]

Elves: hey rhiju, LFP6, Brourd, Vineet, Janderson, Nando, et all :) [3:02 PM]

jandersonlee: Hey Nando - glad you could join us [3:02 PM]

rhiju: oh crap, i have to leave for 5 mins [3:02 PM]

Brourd: Nando shall take over. [3:03 PM]

rhiju: maybe nando can give an update on flash? [3:03 PM]

LFP6: Have fun Rhiju [3:03 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Hi [3:03 PM]

vineetkosaraju: He shall rule in your abscence with an iron fist - do not worry, the eterna kingdom shall remain intact [3:03 PM]

Nando: the issues with the player? [3:03 PM]

Elves: hi miss Pearl! :) [3:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: my first devchat [3:04 PM]

LFP6: Glad you could join in [3:04 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Hi Elves!! [3:04 PM]

Elves: woohoo! [3:04 PM]

jandersonlee: Welcome then JP [3:04 PM]

vineetkosaraju: Nando maybe talk about the response from Adobe? [3:04 PM]

Nando: well, the news is that they seem to have found a fix, and it should be released on Aug 11th [3:04 PM]

jandersonlee: sweet [3:04 PM]

vineetkosaraju: Have you tested the developer preview? I remember you mentioning memory leaks or something [3:05 PM]

Nando: not much more to say about this fiasco [3:05 PM]

Nando: @vineet, yes, it all seems patched now [3:05 PM]

jandersonlee: welcome to Agile programming! [3:05 PM]

rhiju: ok back for a second [3:05 PM]

jnicol: Hi all [3:04 PM]

Elves: hi jnicol! [3:05 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: hi jnicol [3:05 PM]

Nando: hi John [3:06 PM]

rhiju: could you start a conversation about 'bundling' lab solutions? this came up informally at eternacon, but we didn't get opinions from teh community braodly, or fine-tune the proposal. [3:06 PM]

rhiju: ok out for a second. sorry about this. [3:06 PM]

Nando: ah, yes [3:06 PM]

Nando: I had a suggestion about the way we work with labs [3:06 PM]

jnicol: not sure about the bundling, but I am working on putting the order for R97 together now [3:06 PM]

Nando: it's just a vision at this point [3:07 PM]

jandersonlee: Isn't bundling supposed to allow tean collaboration and block voting? [3:07 PM]

jandersonlee: team [3:07 PM]

LFP6: I believe that's what we're talking abou [3:07 PM]

LFP6: *about [3:07 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: that sounds interesting [3:07 PM]

Nando: that's the idea JL [3:07 PM]

Brourd: I'm just waiting for the vision. [3:07 PM]

jandersonlee: cloudy [3:07 PM]

Nando: well, what about having groups submitting and voting on designs? [3:08 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Would it be optional? [3:08 PM]

LFP6: It could give the more of a viable use [3:08 PM]

Nando: for one, it would reactivate a feature that has been quite dead for a while: groups [3:08 PM]

LFP6: *them [3:08 PM]

jandersonlee: I think that's what bundling is, but it's like auction lots [3:08 PM]

Brourd: Given my current experience with the future of lab puzzles within the multistrand input framework, that is probably the only viable option going forward. [3:09 PM]

jandersonlee: not one design, but several [3:09 PM]

Nando: it could also promote collaboration and discussions... [3:09 PM]

LFP6: On that note [3:09 PM]

jnicol: Is this to chose which labs are made active? [3:08 PM]

hoglahoo: what is 'bundling lab solutions' exactly [3:09 PM]

Nando: @john: no it's about the designs themselves [3:09 PM]

Nando: working in teams [3:10 PM]

LFP6: Bundling might be a good idea just for player submissions, if you are working on a group of submissions relates to each other [3:10 PM]

Brourd: However, within the group functionality framework, we currently have the ability to join whatever group you want. [3:10 PM]

jandersonlee: that's patr of the idea [3:10 PM]

Nando: I noticed that I submitted my 600 designs without ever discussing any of my ideas and hypotheses with anyone [3:10 PM]

LFP6: And maybe having an 'evolutionary tree' for designs, so you can see the path of the mods of mods? [3:10 PM]

Nando: later I thought, wait a minute, that's wrong somewhere [3:11 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I like the tree idea [3:11 PM]

jandersonlee: I thought groups could be moderated? [3:10 PM]

LFP6: They can [3:11 PM]

Brourd: Yeah, but you also said you wanted to keep the nobel prize for yourself if the theories work, Nando. ;P [3:11 PM]

LFP6: I happen to be a member of about 230 I think [3:11 PM]

Nando: :D [3:11 PM]

LFP6: *30 [3:11 PM]

Nando: again, this was just a vague idea of mine [3:11 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I joined the tools group but havent done anything in it yet. not really sure what to use it for [3:12 PM]

jandersonlee: so one could create groups for collaboration and have bundles owne by players or groups [3:12 PM]

Brourd: Exactly, 30 or 230, both represent an arbitrary lack of limit on groups. [3:12 PM]

Nando: there are many possibilities JL [3:12 PM]

LFP6: Having chats for each of them would still help, just throwing it out there [3:12 PM]

jandersonlee: that's what the discussion is I think Nando [3:12 PM]

LFP6: each group, that is [3:12 PM]

Nando: that's why we need to discuss it in the community [3:12 PM]

Nando: precisely JL ;) [3:13 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: so would it be that a group would be given say 100 slots and everyone decived amungst themselves what to submit? [3:13 PM]

Brourd: Perhaps we need a soft reboot on the groups. [3:13 PM]

jandersonlee: or a group submits one or more bundles for a vote [3:13 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: *decided [3:13 PM]

LFP6: Maybe what we don't need is groups [3:13 PM]

LFP6: But projects? [3:13 PM]

jandersonlee: I think Rhiju still plans for community voting rather than slot allocation [3:14 PM]

jandersonlee: per haps one guaranteed per lab player? [3:14 PM]

LFP6: And if there was a group of people who wanted to continually worked together, they would be encouraged to create a group [3:14 PM]

jandersonlee: one slot that is [3:14 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I like the idea of each player being guaranteed one slot [3:15 PM]

LFP6: That wouldn't be a horrible diea [3:14 PM]

jandersonlee: projects could be a new spin on pilot labs [3:15 PM]

LFP6: It would be a good one, actually :) [3:15 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: that way they are free to experiment on the side and work with the group [3:15 PM]

rhiju: i'm bak [3:15 PM]

LFP6: Hmmm.... Here's my thought, I'm curious if anyone will like it [3:15 PM]

rhiju: i think there is strong consensus on at least 1 'freebie' for every player [3:15 PM]

rhiju: maybe a little more [3:16 PM]

Nando: all it has to be is an incentive for collaborations and sharing of ideas about designing good sequences for the goal at hand [3:16 PM]

LFP6: Have 'projects' in each lab to bundle solutions togehter [3:16 PM]

LFP6: *together [3:16 PM]

LFP6: AND seperatey revamp groups [3:16 PM]

rhiju: i'm confused on the projects proposal [3:16 PM]

Brourd: Would a group system be an incentive for that, Nando? [3:16 PM]

LFP6: Instead of groups submitting bundles, anyone could, in a project [3:16 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I would enjoy working on a team. It would definitly be a way for players to learn more [3:16 PM]

rhiju: i suspect that bundles proposed by groups who have gained some credibility in preior rounds will be voted up [3:17 PM]

rhiju: @LFP6 i also *really* like the idea of chats for groups [3:17 PM]

Nando: if the only way you can get your ideas synthesized is to convince other member of the groups, possibly Brourd [3:17 PM]

LFP6: What about just adding functionality to groups that would be identical to a separate account, as is currently done in some groups? [3:17 PM]

rhiju: actually that would further incentivize joining groups [3:17 PM]

Elves: groups in foldit seemed to inspire competition and protection of data & info rather than sharing; however within groups and per person, the cookbooks library of strategies helped to share ideas and methods for... [3:17 PM]

rhiju: and team-specific chats are a commong feature of other online games [3:17 PM]


Brourd: So we limit synthesis slots to players who join groups then? [3:18 PM]

rhiju: @elves, i think all solutions would still be public, but can you think of ohter ways to incentivize openness and a healthy community? [3:18 PM]

LFP6: Why not just add an interface in groups to submit labs, player puzzles, etc. in the name of that group? [3:18 PM]

jandersonlee: @Elves - having the votes for up/down on bundles requires some collaboration [3:18 PM]

jandersonlee: between groups [3:18 PM]

rhiju: @brourd, no i think players should be allowed to also submit bundles [3:18 PM]

wuami: hi all [3:18 PM]

jandersonlee: and having a slot or two per player guarantees access to beginners [3:18 PM]

hoglahoo: hi wuami [3:18 PM]

Nando: hi michelle [3:19 PM]

LFP6: As I said, I think we need to separate the issues we're talking about here [3:19 PM]

Elves: i'm not sure i understand the bundles concept or goal [3:19 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, i'm confused (but interested) -- are you thinking that votes are made by groups? [3:19 PM]

Brourd: So we are looking for a design framework where we want to incentivize collaboration. [3:19 PM]

LFP6: One is bundling [3:19 PM]

Elves: welcome! [3:19 PM]

LFP6: The second is making collaboration and usage of groups a thing [3:19 PM]

rhiju: the bundles concept is an attempt to solve a cfew problems. [3:19 PM]

LFP6: Bundles is a feature that should be independant of groups [3:19 PM]

rhiju: one is that we have so many synthesis slots that it is hard to simply understand the data as a whole [3:19 PM]

jandersonlee: votes are made by players - but one vote per individual design or bundle [3:19 PM]

LFP6: But let groups submit bundles, lab submissions, player puzzles, etc. [3:19 PM]

LFP6: Do I have a valid point of view on this? [3:20 PM]

Brourd: However, I'm pointing out that groups already exist, and there has been little to no actual collaboration within that framework. [3:20 PM]

rhiju: second issue is that we are not promoting discussion of sequences  [3:20 PM]

Elves: what about getting points or badges for applying methods from the strategy market? this would incentivize sharing of methods, and testing of those methods independently, and also reward interaction with other... [3:20 PM]

...players' contributions. not a total solution but just an idea

rhiju: the spriti that we had in the ealry days of eterna wheen there were few synthesis slots and lots of people were incentivized to look at all solutions and all lab data [3:21 PM]

jandersonlee: it's hard to discuss 8000 seqeunces [3:21 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I remember that [3:21 PM]

jandersonlee: but 80 bundles [3:21 PM]

jandersonlee: might be doable [3:21 PM]

rhiju: yea, 80 bundles seem reasonable [3:21 PM]

LFP6: And hense the ELO that I've been seeing in the old forum posts, which has since been removed (probably good now, because we want to see good and bad solutions at some points) [3:21 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: We need a way to compile all teh data into one place [3:21 PM]

rhiju: if each is allowed to present a 140-character theme/summary prepared by the team [3:21 PM]

rhiju: @jennifer, right, thats someething devs would work on [3:21 PM]

rhiju: (how to show the 80 bundles and allow deeper dives into thebundles) [3:22 PM]

hoglahoo: I echo what Brourd said a moment ago. Collaboration probably can only work in groups if there are active and willing group leaders who will keep prodding those who are in the groups [3:22 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Any response to my idea of having bundles, but not making it specific to groups, just giving groups the ability to publish bundles, submissions, and player puzzles [3:22 PM]

Brourd: I do agree that there needs to be some sort of design philosophy behind the way players submit sequences. But I don't see where this fosters collaboration. [3:22 PM]

rhiju: @brourd, well those teams do not get their team names on anything currently. [3:22 PM]

rhiju: so there's no incentive for doing anything in teams or building the credibility of a team [3:23 PM]

jandersonlee: if a group works together they can each vote for their bundle [3:22 PM]

rhiju: 'voting blocks' [3:23 PM]

jandersonlee: and increase the votes [3:23 PM]

jandersonlee: @Rhiju - that [3:23 PM]

rhiju: there's one more aspect to this bundling [3:23 PM]

Elves: i'm also confused about how bundles reduces the quantity of data, while it is grouped, is there anything to reduce actual quantity of data to parse or is it still same throughput just bundled? [3:23 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I agree that there is no incentive for using the groups now [3:23 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju That's why I'm saying give groups tools that you would get by having an 'account' for the team. That's all you need to do, bundling is really a separate feature [3:23 PM]

rhiju: it came from a separate conversation with a player who is not here. [3:23 PM]

Nando: lab work has to be rewarded, that's also something missing currently [3:23 PM]

Nando: points or badges, whatever, but something [3:24 PM]

Elves: what about picking a limited number of root sequences, and then each bundle is a set of iterations exploring changes to that specific sequence, so that we can truly chunk the data? [3:24 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I like that Elves!! [3:24 PM]

rhiju: @elves, exactly -- that's one option that a team can choose to do. [3:24 PM]

jandersonlee: Max Hamming distace = 10? [3:24 PM]

Elves: i agree with nando, labs effort needs rewards activated for participation [3:24 PM]

rhiju: and I bet a lot of people would vote for it. [3:24 PM]

Elves: thanks Jennifer! :) [3:24 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: That would be a nice controlled way to do some experiments [3:24 PM]

Elves: exactly [3:24 PM]

rhiju: an another team might want to make a more diverse set, perhaps using their favorite bot [3:24 PM]

Elves: ys perfect, bots can help create iterations and reduce manual workload [3:25 PM]

LFP6: @rhiju Any thoughts on just giving account functionality to groups? [3:25 PM]

rhiju: if the teams submitting 'controlled' experiment gain success, their proposals will get upvoted in later rounds [3:25 PM]

Elves: and we can get per nucleotide differences in sequence behavior [3:25 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: If that was how it was sold I think people might take notice [3:25 PM]

rhiju: its a bit like the early days [3:25 PM]

Elves: what is account functionality? [3:25 PM]

rhiju: elves you should start a team for 'systematic science or something! [3:25 PM]

jandersonlee: @Rhiju - to ballance the upvoting cutting out new players we need the handlful of slots per player [3:25 PM]

Elves: hehehe [3:25 PM]

Elves: intelligent systems ftw [3:26 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, agreed -- every player who is in the lab (20k points) has 1 freebie [3:26 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: D-PAT3 will be able to give individual nuc props as well so that could go along [3:26 PM]

rhiju: and the rest will be determined by bundles with the most votes. [3:26 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: *probs [3:26 PM]

LFP6: @Brourd If you have an account, you can submit sequences, bundles, and player puzzles. Just let groups do the exact same thing without having to make an acocunt! [3:26 PM]

LFP6: Er, @Elves [3:26 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: actuall it is able to [3:26 PM]

LFP6: Sorry [3:26 PM]

rhiju: @lfp6 -- agreed that making teams a separate 'player' would work well. [3:26 PM]

LFP6: Personally, ir's needed [3:26 PM]

rhiju: there is also some infrastructure based on how admins & co-admins can be assigned to a player project -- not yet sure about details [3:27 PM]

Brourd: With an already existing functionality, if players wanted to collaborate, they would already do so. From the perspective of the player, there is something missing within that interaction that simply throwing in design hypotheses and sequence bundling won't fix. [3:27 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: But what if you focus ont eh tema only trhen your account doesnt change [3:27 PM]

LFP6: Solves the problem [3:27 PM]

LFP6: And bundles are a separaate issue, as I've stated [3:27 PM]

rhiju: there is one more aspect about this proposal [3:27 PM]

rhiju: i think its potentiall cool [3:27 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: i cant type [3:27 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju was actualyl talking about regular player puzzles, but that would be cool too :) [3:27 PM]

rhiju: its a little crazy to have designing and voting happening at the same time. [3:28 PM]

jandersonlee: @Brourd what is that? [3:27 PM]

rhiju: what if instead, every month, we had 3 phases [3:28 PM]

rhiju: the first 2 weeks was for preparing bundles. [3:28 PM]

rhiju: the 3rd week was for voting, and bundles would be frozen. [3:28 PM]

rhiju: players could, in addition to voting, COMMENT on each bundle. [3:28 PM]

rhiju: and in the 4th week, teams with the top-ranked bundles would have a chance to adjust their bundles based on other player's feedback. [3:28 PM]

LFP6: Well, I actually just happened to trip across an old post in the forum [3:28 PM]

LFP6: Aperantly, separate voting used to happen, but people didn't like it? https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/lab_work_flow_system_overhaul_proposal [3:29 PM]

rhiju: this is pretty closely analogous to how expert science is done, with papers/grants submitted; reviewed by peers; and there is a chance for revision. [3:29 PM]

Nando: sounds good Rhiju [3:29 PM]

rhiju: and it would be fun  think [3:29 PM]

rhiju: every week we'd be in a slightly different 'mode' [3:29 PM]

LFP6: What do you think about having multiple labs run at the same time, at different phases? [3:29 PM]

jandersonlee: two weeks to get O(8000) designs is a tall order, even with teams [3:29 PM]

Elves: thanks lfp6 for context [3:29 PM]

LFP6: Or is the whole idea that that's too much? [3:29 PM]

rhiju: and through the bundle explanations, and comments from players, we'd record quite a bit of our scientific discussion and hypothesis generation [3:30 PM]

Elves: i agree with Brourd, I think that increasing collaboration will need some additional element other than bundling, since voting is actually a competitive behavior [3:30 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, maybe the timescales could be stretched. [3:30 PM]

jandersonlee: groups have a messaging thread [3:30 PM]

rhiju: we are looking into experimental protocols that would get us to longer RNA lengths (500-1000 nts), but they might take longer. [3:31 PM]

jandersonlee: the interface needs some work though [3:31 PM]

rhiju: so we may need to stretch times a little anyway [3:31 PM]

LFP6: @Elves: Personally, if groups just actually DID something, I think it would fix the problem, without changing style, Bundling would be helpful for grouping the massive amounts of submissions though [3:31 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee -- good point on the messaging thread. in-team chat could be better. [3:31 PM]

rhiju: it would also let some players who just want to focus on science not get distracted in general chat (which they could minimize). [3:32 PM]

Elves: Rhiju, I really like the idea of a schedule that gives enough time to prepare the designs [3:32 PM]

rhiju: @LFP6 (I'm looking at the getsat post now, sorry for not commenting earlier) [3:32 PM]

rhiju: @Elves, the other cool thing about this idea (not mine -- but I can't say who because I forgot to ask permission) is that there's that last phase [3:32 PM]

LFP6: Just trying to get some idea... Does anyone else agree that we should add bundling as a grouping feature when looking into one particular idea, then adding existing functionality to a group? [3:32 PM]

rhiju: in the last phase, even if the initial submissions were rushed, there's a chance to setup a superawesome bundle after player comments. [3:33 PM]

Elves: I think we may have been discussing with Adrien at the convention, with Brourd & LFP6 the idea to have chat clients per group in addition to PM messaging threads [3:33 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @LFP6 I like your idea [3:33 PM]

rhiju: @elves, cool i didn't know about those conversations. sounds like we've converged a bit. [3:33 PM]

LFP6: @Elves: Well, separate channels, technically [3:33 PM]

LFP6: But :) [3:33 PM]

LFP6: Tabbed [3:33 PM]

LFP6: ANOTHER old GetSat topic I found [3:34 PM]

rhiju: @lfp6, on your proposal 'add bundling as a grouping feature when looking into one particular idea' are you suggesting that teams could submit more than one bundle? [3:34 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Tabbed is good for easyily going back and forth [3:34 PM]

vineetkosaraju: Re-doing chat to have multiple channels is something that we should do eventually [3:34 PM]

Elves: Rhiju, that is interesting, to have an evaluation phase, I like that idea. feedback only works if we have space to apply it [3:34 PM]

LFP6: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/tabbed_chatrooms [3:34 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Sure, why not. But that's not the focus [3:34 PM]

LFP6: My point is [3:34 PM]

jandersonlee: @Rhiju - yes, more than one bundle, just like now I get 100 seqeunces [3:34 PM]

LFP6: Bundles are a concept independant of groups [3:35 PM]

Elves: LFP^ re: add bundling as a grouping feature, not sure I understand [3:35 PM]

rhiju: i hadn't thought about that (bundling independent of groups). Super idea. [3:35 PM]

LFP6: Bundles are a way to create an 'exparament', where you're looking into one particular idea [3:35 PM]

LFP6: Groups should just have the ability to submit bundles [3:35 PM]

jandersonlee: suppose I have 20 variantes on one last round design ==> bundle/group [3:35 PM]

rhiju: i can imagine really enjoying vieiwng lab porposals (and synthesis results) with that kind of organization, by idea. [3:35 PM]

rhiju: yes [3:35 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: your typing like me LFP6 [3:36 PM]

rhiju: i'm sold [3:35 PM]

LFP6: In addition to individual designs and player puzzles, which IMO should've existed by now [3:35 PM]

Elves: ahhh yes yes great idea. i like having ability to do bundles regardless of groups, if that is what you mean [3:36 PM]

LFP6: @Jennifer Pearl: We all speak fleuant tpyo here, least I do :) [3:36 PM]

Elves: hehehe [3:36 PM]

rhiju: @lfp6,just to clarfiy you're advocating bundling of player puzzles [3:36 PM]

hoglahoo: don't many people already bundle them, using the submission titles to organize them [3:36 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Two separate ideas, sorry [3:36 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @LFP6 lol [3:36 PM]

Elves: good point hoglahoo, that may be an approach to explain the concept [3:36 PM]

LFP6: But that is actually another idea :P [3:36 PM]

jandersonlee: @hog - yes, but this would allow you to vote for a whole bundle [3:36 PM]

hoglahoo: ah [3:37 PM]

jandersonlee: not just one seqeunce [3:36 PM]

rhiju: @hoglahoo, right!! that's a good point. so i think there are players (and hopefully teams) who will take advnatage of bundling [3:37 PM]

Elves: so it would reduce voting labor as well [3:37 PM]

Nando: we're 35 minutes in, maybe this should be opened as a topic on GetSat [3:37 PM]

Elves: good idea Nando [3:37 PM]

LFP6: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/puzzle_playlist [3:37 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: yeah [3:37 PM]

rhiju: the cool thing about the bundling is that they will have a 140-char blurb explaining the overall idea behind, say, 100 submissions [3:37 PM]

Nando: otherwise, that will be the only thing discussed in this dev chat [3:37 PM]

hoglahoo: It took me 30 minutes just to collect a single coherent thought after trying to keep up with the fast scrolling chat [3:37 PM]

Elves: agreed [3:37 PM]

rhiju: hahaha [3:37 PM]

rhiju: ok, can i get to the 1st agenda item? [3:38 PM]

jandersonlee: chat winodw is useful for dev chat ;) [3:37 PM]

LFP6: This time I linked to a Getsat post less than 4 years old, and my own :) [3:37 PM]

vineetkosaraju: can we have someone volunteer to migrate this to the forums? nose goes :p [3:38 PM]

rhiju: i wanted to preview an important initiative [3:38 PM]

rhiju: to dedicated players who are at the chat [3:38 PM]

LFP6: Please do move on Rhiju [3:38 PM]

rhiju: we have confirmed with collaborators at stanford our first puzzle that will lead to clinically relevant molecules [3:38 PM]

Elves: :D :D :D :D [3:39 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice [3:39 PM]

Elves: wow!!!! [3:39 PM]

LFP6: That is quite neat [3:39 PM]

rhiju: it will be: a sensor for active tuberculosis [3:39 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: i cant wait to analyze that lab [3:39 PM]

rhiju: TB affects 9 millions new people every year [3:39 PM]

rhiju: and it kills 1.5 million people every year [3:39 PM]

Elves: that's incredible, that will make a huge impact not only for science but also our ability to explain to new folks what we are doing here [3:39 PM]

rhiju: primarily in low resource populations [3:39 PM]

Elves: that is simply amazing news. :) [3:39 PM]

rhiju: there is a strong need for fast, cheap diagnostics for active TB [3:39 PM]

jandersonlee: i'm game [3:39 PM]

LFP6: You have convinced me to jump into labs :P [3:39 PM]

rhiju: the current best diagnostic involves a complex assay that seeks to amplify the bacterial DNA from a patient's blood [3:40 PM]

rhiju: its expensive [3:40 PM]

rhiju: and it requires sending blood to a central lab [3:40 PM]

Elves: wow. that's a great idea. rapid diagnostics in the field... RNA switches can help! lol  [3:40 PM]

rhiju: and it takes several hours [3:40 PM]

Brourd: How many inputs are in this sensor, if you are at liberty to describe any of those details? [3:40 PM]

rhiju: what if we can do the diagnosing with RNA molecules? [3:40 PM]

rhiju: in the 'field'? [3:40 PM]

rhiju: at the point of care? [3:40 PM]

LFP6: I like it [3:40 PM]

rhiju: with a test like a pregnancy test -- colorimetric? [3:40 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Finding out you have teh disease sooner will help prevent its spread and increase survival rats [3:41 PM]

rhiju: rats? [3:41 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: *rates [3:41 PM]

Elves: yes like for diagnosing ebola, they need rapid tests in the field / on the ground / where people are physically, not in hospitals [3:41 PM]

rhiju: right [3:41 PM]

rhiju: @brourd, yes let's get into details [3:41 PM]

jandersonlee: even if not 100%, it could be an effective pre-screen for more expensive/time-consuming tests [3:41 PM]

Elves: it's actually an incredibly huge problem for infectious disease, rapid cheap diagnostics [3:41 PM]

rhiju: researchers at stanford have been going through data on what genes are expressed in RNA of patients, over 14 cohorts collected over the last decade or so. [3:41 PM]

rhiju: and they have come up with a 3 gene signature for active TB. [3:42 PM]

Elves: Brourd, good question :) [3:42 PM]

rhiju: they are genes related to the host (patient's) inflammation response [3:42 PM]

rhiju: and the cool thing is that the signature is specific for TB - [3:42 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I was half asleep until this subject [3:42 PM]

jandersonlee: handy [3:42 PM]

rhiju: mmost prior attempts to do this have given signatures that also sense viral infection or other diseases. [3:42 PM]

Elves: Jennifer exactly, rapid diagnostics is critical path for stopping outbreaks [3:42 PM]

rhiju: or signatures that don't work in HIV+ patients [3:42 PM]

rhiju: but this seems to be robust and speicific to TB [3:43 PM]

rhiju: you'd do the test with a drop of blood, and immediate go onto antibacterials -- or not.  [3:43 PM]

Elves: janderson good point on prescreen filter [3:43 PM]

Elves: wow [3:43 PM]

rhiju: so.... [3:43 PM]

rhiju: what we have to do [3:43 PM]

rhiju: is design molecules that can sense 3 other RNAs in blood [3:43 PM]

rhiju: and only if all 3 are present  [3:43 PM]

Elves: dos it have to be all in one or can be a cohort? [3:44 PM]

rhiju: display a hairpin that binds MS2 [3:44 PM]

jandersonlee: 3 independent tests would be simple than a 3-way and [3:44 PM]

rhiju: (or a sequence that binds a DNA oligo) [3:44 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, we will also design for that too. [3:44 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: nice [3:44 PM]

jandersonlee: (to start at least) [3:44 PM]

rhiju: But there's a slight twist [3:44 PM]

rhiju: what we actuall want to measure is [A] * [B] / [C] [3:44 PM]

rhiju: where [A], [B], and [C] are the RNa concentrations [3:45 PM]

Elves: ooo RNA math [3:45 PM]

Brourd: Indeed [3:45 PM]

Elves: :D [3:45 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: intersting [3:45 PM]

rhiju: and so actually we do not need an 'AND' gate  [3:45 PM]

jandersonlee: use a cellphone app to do the math [3:45 PM]

LFP6: So this is taking Feyman, and going a step above and beyond? [3:45 PM]

rhiju: we need a special gate that looks for [A] and [B] and not [C] [3:45 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee -- yes, possibly [3:45 PM]

Elves: why not have 3 independent sensors like janderson said? [3:45 PM]

rhiju: what i think we'll do is have the sensors for [A], [B], and [C] separately and allow someone in the field to try to take apicture and do the math [3:46 PM]

jandersonlee: or testAB(A,B) plust TestC(C) [3:46 PM]

rhiju: but it turns out that folks who have tried this with other tests have had problems [3:46 PM]

rhiju: if we can do some preprocessing  [3:46 PM]

Elves: do we have a list of those problems? [3:46 PM]

Elves: :D [3:46 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: that would be helpfull [3:46 PM]

rhiju: preprocessing at the molecular level, we could make a readout that can be assessed by human eye [3:46 PM]

rhiju: for people who do not have cellphones [3:46 PM]

jandersonlee: in the 3rd world, every doctor has a cell phone [3:47 PM]

rhiju: and what we'd really want to do  is make 10 of these RNA 'computers' [3:47 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, that's a good point. [3:47 PM]

Elves: what about teams or groups per disease? because then people may join ones they are passionate, educated, or personally invested in solving, like if their family member has certain type of cancer or something [3:47 PM]

hoglahoo: I thought we were just talking about TB [3:47 PM]

rhiju: my sense is that its still hard to quantitate colro intentisy with phones -- this is from talking to folks who have tried to put diagnostics into the field [3:47 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: bundling would be helpfull for this project [3:47 PM]

LFP6: @Elves: There's the possibility of trying to do too many things at once there [3:47 PM]

rhiju: @Elves, yes, this is pilot for other diseases. [3:48 PM]

hoglahoo: cool [3:48 PM]

rhiju: the TB sensor isa good start case as it involves 3 RNAs [3:48 PM]

jandersonlee: need a reference [3:48 PM]

Elves: mobile is getting very widespread. but contamination of devices is an issue with infectious disease. so disposables readable by sight do still sound interesting. however janderson is right about mobile being... [3:48 PM]

...nearly ubiquitous 

rhiju: @jandersonlee, we have been asked to keep the details confidential. [3:48 PM]

LFP6: When you have many things to pick and choose from, not as much concentrated effort goes in, you might not get what you need [3:48 PM]

rhiju: so for our test puzzles (which will be deploye din the next months), we will use some placeholder genes [3:48 PM]

jandersonlee: i mean a ference sensor [3:48 PM]

Elves: heh yes hoglahoo i think i got excited and jumped into the future in my little time machine [3:49 PM]

rhiju: we will deploy the official puzzles in jan 2016 [3:49 PM]

jandersonlee: reference RNA sensor [3:49 PM]

hoglahoo: an exciting future it may be [3:49 PM]

rhiju: perhaps with beta testing with the actual sequences in nov-dec 2015, if the paper is published. [3:49 PM]

Elves: :D [3:49 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee -- you've pinpointed an important issue. [3:49 PM]

rhiju: there are currently several diagnostics for RNa/DNA-based diagnostics [3:49 PM]

rhiju: however, there are none based on custom-designed switches [3:50 PM]

rhiju: there is a chicken-and-egg problem [3:50 PM]

rhiju: where no one has tried these switches, because no one has been able to make them [3:50 PM]

jandersonlee: I mean one moelecule that is just an MS2 sensor with no qlauifier [3:50 PM]

rhiju: so the hypothesis here is that we can kick off this cycle [3:50 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @Rhiju that soiunds like a cool challenge then [3:51 PM]

jnicol: might want to go through some more of the agenda items and come back to this at a later dev chat [3:50 PM]

Elves: good point jnicol [3:51 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, all diagnostics based on measuing nucleic acid use PCR, not things like MS2 binding [3:51 PM]

rhiju: but diagnostics (like pregnancy tests) rely on binding of antibodies to, say, hormones [3:51 PM]

rhiju: and that would be the analog of our MS2 binding. [3:51 PM]

rhiju: (we may actually not use MS2 -- we are working out details) [3:52 PM]

jandersonlee: understood [3:52 PM]

rhiju: now, there is an important thing here -- eterna itself will not work on  the device engineering  [3:52 PM]

rhiju: but we are lining up partners to work on it. [3:52 PM]

LFP6: What's the issue currently? [3:52 PM]

rhiju: even with a proof of concept, this could be transformative because... [3:52 PM]

jandersonlee: ca-ching? [3:52 PM]

LFP6: Ohm nvm [3:52 PM]

rhiju: stanford folks have come up with blood-based RNA signatures for a number of infectios diseases that affect populations worldwide [3:53 PM]

rhiju: including: a bacterium-vs-viral signature [3:53 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: wow [3:53 PM]

rhiju: a HIV-specific signature [3:53 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: thats big [3:53 PM]

LFP6: This is... Pretty guge [3:53 PM]

LFP6: *huge [3:53 PM]

rhiju: a signatuer that predicts the onset of sepsis in hospital patients [3:53 PM]

Elves: omg does bacteria vs viral mean that then doctors with stop prescribing antibiotics for viral infections!!!? [3:53 PM]

rhiju: (sepsis is the leading cause of death in hospitals in the US) [3:53 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: right [3:53 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: !!!] [3:54 PM]

rhiju: @elves, yes, exactly [3:53 PM]

Elves: that is huge [3:54 PM]

rhiju: anyway, we can talk more about this over the next months. [3:54 PM]

LFP6: +1 relevancy for EteRN [3:54 PM]

Elves: super cool [3:54 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: im definitly in [3:54 PM]

LFP6: *EteRNA [3:54 PM]

rhiju: and we will explain what we're doing through banners, about pages, tutorials, and videos introducing the labs [3:54 PM]

jandersonlee: is ther an easier one to start with than TB? [3:54 PM]

LFP6: Is this where Cell comes in, to make this whole thing work? [3:54 PM]

jandersonlee: <3 molecules? [3:54 PM]

rhiju: @jandersonlee, there aren't ones with fewer genes. [3:54 PM]

jandersonlee: rats [3:54 PM]

rhiju: :) [3:55 PM]

Brourd: three inputs is a viable sensor, imo. [3:55 PM]

rhiju: eterna can solve this [3:55 PM]

rhiju: ok, look we need to wrap up soon. [3:55 PM]

LFP6: Honestly, I find it both hilarious and pathetic that the issue with player retention was mentioned 4 years ago and the Cell initiative is only starting now: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/score_distribution_of_eterna_players [3:55 PM]

rhiju: and there's a lot more to talk about. [3:55 PM]

rhiju: can i suggest that we have dev chats a bit more regularly? [3:55 PM]

rhiju: it would help us a *lot* [3:55 PM]

LFP6: Please [3:55 PM]

Elves: yes please!! [3:55 PM]

Brourd: Eh [3:56 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: yes [3:56 PM]

rhiju: is this time ok for those attending? [3:56 PM]

rhiju: do you know about other players who wwanted to attend but could not? [3:56 PM]

Brourd: Ehhh [3:56 PM]

jandersonlee: you might float the date/time in case this slot does not work for everyone [3:56 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Im at work at this time, but can step away for a bit [3:56 PM]

jnicol: next week? [3:55 PM]

rhiju: this time happens to be good for us, as we go into dev meeting right afterwards [3:56 PM]

LFP6: As in a news? [3:56 PM]

rhiju: how about every 2 weeks to start with. [3:56 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: works for me [3:56 PM]

jandersonlee: that's what it used to be. [3:56 PM]

rhiju: there may be periods where we need to do this more frequently [3:56 PM]

LFP6: So, go back to the old schedule, but on Fridays? [3:56 PM]

rhiju: yes -- let's try this for t next dev chat [3:57 PM]

rhiju: and in the news item I can ask players to PM me if they want to make it but can't make the time. [3:57 PM]

rhiju: OK one last thing [3:57 PM]

jandersonlee: fair enough [3:57 PM]

rhiju: we currently have a creative commons license [3:57 PM]

rhiju: which will likely not be strong enough to protect biotech companies from taking any TB sensor designs that we make [3:58 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @Rhiju Do you want to wait to talk about the 'About' page next dev chat? [3:58 PM]

Elves: by definition anybody can take whatever they want [3:58 PM]

rhiju: we would like any clinically used products to benefit eterna [3:58 PM]

LFP6: Well, needs to be noncommercial use though [3:58 PM]

rhiju: and to to cite eterna players as inventors [3:58 PM]

jandersonlee: usa a different liencse for the eterna-mdeicine labs? [3:58 PM]

rhiju: that's one option [3:59 PM]

LFP6: That would be nice to do, Rhiju [3:59 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I agree [3:59 PM]

rhiju: another option is to start working from a more thought out license [3:59 PM]

rhiju: like the one foldit has [3:59 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: My friends have been mentioning that with me developing tools [3:59 PM]

jandersonlee: you might lose some players depending on the license [3:59 PM]

LFP6: The main issue with completely overhauling license [3:59 PM]

LFP6: Is existing content [3:59 PM]

jandersonlee: old content stands under the CC license [4:00 PM]

LFP6: Technically, not being the owner, you can't change it [4:00 PM]

rhiju: dang trying to find the link [4:00 PM]

rhiju: yes old content would be CC [4:00 PM]

LFP6: Got it [4:00 PM]

rhiju: https://fold.it/portal/legal [4:01 PM]

rhiju: can i ask you (the players) to take alook at this and post comments? [4:01 PM]

rhiju: like in a getsat post? [4:01 PM]

rhiju: in our news item for the next chat, we'll discuss this [4:01 PM]

jandersonlee: that would be a reasonable forum for comment [4:01 PM]

rhiju: and most definitely the about page (@jennifer1) [4:01 PM]

Elves: thanks for the link and heads up [4:01 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Can someone start a post? [4:02 PM]

LFP6: So... Two GetSat topics need posting [4:01 PM]

rhiju: we are also beginning to talk to legal team and IP experts [4:02 PM]

rhiju: It would be pretty astonishing if eterna could patent molecules with, say, 500 inventors listed on the patent [4:02 PM]

Elves: :D [4:03 PM]

LFP6: We'd make history, that's for sure! [4:03 PM]

jandersonlee: might need to have a separate site/server to easily separate the content [4:03 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I wouldnt mind starting the thread about the foldit license stuff [4:03 PM]

rhiju: but that's probably what would have to happen, since we will have a strong record of who proposed sequences, core ideas, and mods to get to these functional molecules [4:03 PM]

rhiju: there are going to be crazy issues with getting that patent [4:03 PM]

rhiju: and we are excited about figuring out how to make this happen!! [4:03 PM]

LFP6: Let me just point something out quickly [4:03 PM]

LFP6: This whole thing screams press [4:03 PM]

Elves: it would also be good to protect the data since it can be potentially exploited. at the same time, we don't want to hand over keys or partnerships to anyone who will themselves exploit our inventions. so it... [4:04 PM]

...will be critical to choose carefully who to do business with

LFP6: And that makes Cell kinda important [4:04 PM]

rhiju: yes, we are beginning work on a press strategy [4:04 PM]

LFP6: So, when will the conversation about Cell happen? [4:04 PM]

rhiju: @elves, yes agreed. [4:04 PM]

LFP6: @Elves yep [4:04 PM]

rhiju: we are trying to line up partners ahead of time who we trust -- its going to be an interesting process. [4:05 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: i agre elves [4:05 PM]

Elves: the whole goal of this research is to get medicines to market so at some point we need to make this leap [4:05 PM]

rhiju: @LFP6, we will not be able to deploy the full-fledged Cell in time. [4:05 PM]

Elves: i appreciate that we are carefully reviewing license first [4:05 PM]

rhiju: but our strategy will be to take several concepts that we've worked out while protyping cell and we will seek to deploy them in the game [4:05 PM]

LFP6: Well, no, I'm just saying there needs to be work starting to be put into it IMO [4:05 PM]

rhiju: or actually we will deploy them in a test server [4:05 PM]

rhiju: and ask you for help to test [4:05 PM]

rhiju: and also ask for help from new players especially to test [4:06 PM]

rhiju: that's also highly nontrivial [4:06 PM]

LFP6: Would it be possible to have some sort of transperancy ahead of time, to get players' input on what should go into the redesign? [4:06 PM]

rhiju: for example, we want to make sure there is a clear line of puzzles that get new players into the lab and trained within the lab [4:06 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: It is good to test things on people who dont know waht to dio to work out some bugs that are easily overlooked [4:07 PM]

rhiju: while also ensuring that players can explor other aspects (like puzzle creation & scripts) as they desire [4:07 PM]

rhiju: @LFP6, yes [4:07 PM]

Elves: yes Mat & Eli submitted a selection of linear path training puzzles, so that is hopefully pretty well lined up [4:07 PM]

rhiju: bekeep has decided to begin this coordination of players, new puzzle progression testing, etc. [4:07 PM]

rhiju: @elves, exactly [4:07 PM]

rhiju: you may not know, but bekeep is an education researcher [4:08 PM]

LFP6: It would be helpful not to be told "hey, go test this!" if there is a possibility of a core feature needing to be changed because of an oversight [4:07 PM]

LFP6: That would be extra work :) [4:08 PM]

rhiju: @LFP6 right! [4:08 PM]

LFP6: may as well point it out before time is put in [4:08 PM]

rhiju: ben is already compiling a simple list of core concepts and will be reaching out to players for comments on the progression [4:08 PM]

rhiju: the first 'tests' will not involve coding up stuff. [4:09 PM]

LFP6: Will this include a site UI overhaul as well? [4:09 PM]

rhiju: but instead getting player opinions at an early stage [4:09 PM]

rhiju: @LFP6 no, we will not be able to support a major UI overhaul [4:09 PM]

LFP6: And significant gameplay flow change? [4:09 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: byt what about the Cell interface? Not happening? [4:09 PM]

LFP6: *But [4:09 PM]

rhiju: yes there will be change in player progression -- for new players. [4:09 PM]

jandersonlee: I think eterna-cell is like the Nova intro - it guides you [4:10 PM]

rhiju: Cell interface will happen, but not for this 'eterna-medicine' initiative [4:10 PM]

LFP6: Aaaaah [4:10 PM]

Elves: i think the TB sensor is a fine place to concentrate energy, and selective feature development for whatever is most critical. we should conserve and focus our resources [4:10 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: be efficent [4:10 PM]

LFP6: Because that interface is much more streamlined, but seems to ask for more updates throughout the site [4:10 PM]

LFP6: @Elves Right [4:10 PM]

Elves: the new UI is pretty, but there are specific things we can work on that will make a bigger difference [4:11 PM]

rhiju: but there will be significant other changes to convey to new players how their early puzzle are lading them closer to making progress on diseases like TB [4:11 PM]

rhiju: that kind of foreshadowing is not happening at all right now [4:11 PM]

LFP6: That was just a curiosity, to be hyonest [4:11 PM]

LFP6: *honest [4:11 PM]

rhiju: thanks @elves for both comments. i agree with you! [4:11 PM]

Elves: thanks very much for involving the community so we can help each other! [4:11 PM]

rhiju: ok i gotta go [4:11 PM]

LFP6: THanks Rhiju! [4:11 PM]

Elves: thanks Rhiju, take care :) [4:12 PM]

jandersonlee: given samestate versus exclusive it might be good to try multiple apporaches [4:12 PM]

rhiju: looking forward to chatting again in 2 weeks -- and to PMs and getsat interaction before then. [4:12 PM]

Brourd: Farewell, Rhiju. Take care. [4:12 PM]

jandersonlee: bye Rhiju - thanks for teh news [4:12 PM]

hoglahoo: thanks rhiju [4:12 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: bye Rhiju  [4:12 PM]

Elves: sounds good. glad to see you all. happy news indeed! [4:12 PM]

rhiju: thanks! [4:12 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: very happy news [4:12 PM]

hoglahoo: do you want to wear a star in chat next time [4:12 PM]

Elves: hehehe [4:12 PM]

rhiju: (can someone collect this chat log?) [4:13 PM]

jnicol: thanks for a great dev chat everyone! [4:12 PM]

jandersonlee: and fix the typos? [4:13 PM]

Elves: sure I'll post chat log, LFP6 can you post getsat threads? [4:13 PM]

Elves: lol janderson [4:13 PM]

LFP6: Yes I can Elves [4:13 PM]

Elves: awesome thanks :) :) :) [4:13 PM]

LFP6: np [4:13 PM]

jandersonlee: afk [4:13 PM]

LFP6: Btw, while devs are here, could someone take a quick look at this? https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/-waiting-for-synthesis-results-but-theres-already-data [4:13 PM]

LFP6: I'm missing data :P [4:14 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I guess I gota go back to work now.... after this chat I dont want to do anyting else but RNA [4:14 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: Yes please address that!!!!!!! [4:14 PM]

Elves: hehehe bye Jennifer! RNA will be here when you get back. happy day to you [4:14 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: the waiting for synth thing is really important to D-PAT3 [4:15 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: bye Elves. I guess i am hanging around a bit as I slowly walk away [4:16 PM]

hoglahoo: wireless keyboard? [4:16 PM]

Brourd: Farewell, players. [4:16 PM]

Elves: lol & cheers [4:16 PM]

hoglahoo: farewell [4:16 PM]

LFP6: lol Hoglahoo [4:16 PM]

Elves: bye Brourd! glad to see you [4:16 PM]

Elves: bye hogla, glad to see you too! [4:17 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: any devs left????? [4:17 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: hello????? [4:17 PM]

jnicol: were in a meeting now [4:17 PM]

Brourd: You know, I used to think this RNA thing was so easy, but I guess we're trying now. [4:17 PM]

LFP6: That was my guess :P [4:17 PM]

jnicol: so half hearted attention :) [4:17 PM]

Elves: LOL [4:18 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: can you address teh waiting for syth results thing that LFP6 posted [4:18 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: @jnicol [4:18 PM]

Jennifer Pearl:  https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/-waiting-for-synthesis-results-but-theres-already-data [4:13 PM] [4:18 PM]

LFP6: The data is for her :) [4:18 PM]

Jennifer Pearl: I need that to bring D-PAT3 to its full potential [4:19 PM]