2015.02.25 Dev Chat

From Eterna Wiki

( Link back to Dev Chat archive )


On Leaderboards & XOR Challenges

jnicol: Hi everyone, welcome to dev chat  [3:00 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: i'm sorry, brourd  [3:00 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hi John :)  [3:00 PM]

Brourd: Hey, jnicol.  [3:00 PM]

jnicol: Hi Eli, Brourd, Tomoe  [3:00 PM]

LFP6: I'm here!!!  [3:01 PM]

LFP6: Just in time. :)  [3:01 PM]

Eli Fisker: :)  [3:01 PM]

Brourd: We were just talking about you, and how fabulous you are.  [3:01 PM]

jnicol: anf LFP6  [3:01 PM]

Hyphema: i think i read that doc three times now. and started the article on the Nearest neigbor thing and hoping after the fourth time i will have the deep understanding that i need to design the experiment you are asking for.  [3:01 PM]

hoglahoo: cool, devchat  [3:01 PM]

jnicol: just want to let everyone know that I will be putting up a new leaderboard this weekend  [3:01 PM]

Hyphema: oh, hello John. please i m ranting conintue  [3:02 PM]

LFP6: I can see the past few lines B and there's a saddening lack of discussion about my amazingness  [3:01 PM]

LFP6: :P  [3:01 PM]

hoglahoo: what?  [3:01 PM]

jnicol: check out how it looks here: http://jnicol.eternadev.org/web/players/  [3:02 PM]

hoglahoo: I have to solidfy my current rank for one full year though!  [3:02 PM]

Brourd: @ hyphema - that was just a reference, ha [3:02 PM]

Brourd: Indeed, hoglahoo. I wanted to break the bad news to you, but Jnicol bound me with silence. [3:02 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hey John. [3:02 PM]

Brourd: and candy. [3:02 PM]

LFP6: Looks neat John [3:02 PM]

LFP6: But broken pictures :D [3:02 PM]

jnicol: new addition is the Last 30 Days points [3:02 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hehe this is cool [3:03 PM]

hoglahoo: oh cool [3:03 PM]

hoglahoo: it has lab points next to it [3:03 PM]

LFP6: Lab synthesis [3:03 PM]

jnicol: not lab points [3:03 PM]

Brourd: Number of synthesized designs. [3:03 PM]

jnicol: number of synthesis [3:03 PM]

hoglahoo: oh [3:03 PM]

Eli Fisker: Looks good, John [3:03 PM]

hoglahoo: yeah, good stuff [3:03 PM]

LFP6: So, when should I present my findings on the Wiki? [3:03 PM]

machinelves: nice John, thanks!  [3:04 PM]

Brourd: What wiki? [3:04 PM]

jnicol: Hope everyone has also seen the latest logic puzzles [3:04 PM]

LFP6: In relation to the survey [3:04 PM]

jnicol: yes, LFP6, but gine me a few minutes first [3:04 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, please post a link, to make sure [3:04 PM]

Hyphema: does that mean there will another list for lab syntheses?  or will it just be next to the player with most pints in the past thirty days. [3:04 PM]

LFP6: Sure, just let me know [3:04 PM]

Brourd: Well, I have to be number 1 in something, hyphema. [3:05 PM]

Hyphema: points.  hah, not pints,   [3:05 PM]

hoglahoo: wait what brourd, john is giving you secrets and feeding you candy? you may be in some danger... [3:05 PM]

LFP6: There was a filter for that [3:05 PM]

jnicol: http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/puzzle/5619200/ [3:05 PM]

machinelves: it would be great to also get a leaderboard for lab points. and this one with recent points will help new players get a chance to see their name in lights :) [3:05 PM]

jnicol: http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/puzzle/5619217/ [3:05 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :) [3:05 PM]

Hyphema: youre number one in my heart.  or my nightmares,  something like that [3:05 PM]

jnicol: http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/puzzle/5619208/ [3:05 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hahah [3:05 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yup. Found that thing :) [3:05 PM]

LFP6: Most points in last 30 days will be one of those 'see what new players are grinding' imho lol [3:05 PM]

Eli Fisker: 3 of these puzzles are put up over under Challenge Puzzles [3:06 PM]

jnicol: yes, just put them up a few days ago under the chaleenge ouzzles [3:06 PM]

jnicol: *puzzles [3:06 PM]

jnicol: We will have a lab with these logic puzzles soon, so getting the community use to working with them [3:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: Some of them here and on the page after:  [3:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/challenges/?skip=528&size=24&sort=reward [3:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: for those who haven't found [3:07 PM]

jnicol: and the points are 1000 to 2000 for these challenge puzzles [3:07 PM]

hoglahoo: oh, cool. brb [3:07 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that's actually pretty cool [3:08 PM]

Brourd: We should probably post the far more difficult and accurate constrained linker versions as well. [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: I have been thinking, are there any chance we will get the puzzle tools for putting up puzzles like these? [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: With MS2 energy [3:08 PM]

hoglahoo: so I'm noticing that the 4th state doesn't show the "no" bit in PiP - s this a known bug? [3:08 PM]

Brourd: Nando is on the job, hoglahoo. [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: I think that could get some more solving going [3:08 PM]

jnicol: which puzzle hog? [3:08 PM]

jnicol: all of them> [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: I like the 1-2-3 state and 2-3-4 state that Nando made of the Inverse puzzle [3:09 PM]

Brourd: Secondary constraints are not displayed in PiP mode. [3:09 PM]

hoglahoo: I'm looking at this one http://eterna.cmu.edu/game/puzzle/5619217/ [3:09 PM]

hoglahoo: but it was the case with another one I looked at yesterday too [3:09 PM]

jnicol: oh, yes in the pip mode [3:09 PM]

hoglahoo: yeah so there you go [3:09 PM]

jnicol: Nando knows about that [3:09 PM]

jnicol: and will fix it, but not that urgent [3:10 PM]

jnicol: I am putting together the order for the next sythesis round now [3:10 PM]

Brourd: What else is in the dev pipeline that can be revealed to the ordinary people? [3:11 PM]

jnicol: we are combining the labs that did not synth with the cureent round collected [3:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, good to hear [3:11 PM]

hoglahoo: and what is in the dev pipeline that can't be [3:11 PM]

Brourd: Going for a full order? [3:11 PM]

LFP6: lol Hog [3:11 PM]

jnicol: so some inherent problems with barcodes and padding to make designs within 80 to 90 bases [3:11 PM]

LFP6: I think that's the list of prototype features that give false hope (thinks of a number of them) [3:12 PM]

jnicol: I also have on my plate :) [3:12 PM]

hoglahoo: ahh [3:12 PM]

jnicol: getting JOes 3D results up [3:12 PM]

jnicol: I have the data, need to upload to the game [3:12 PM]

Brourd: A very busy john. [3:13 PM]

jnicol: Ben Keep, has a survey series that we will ask the players to help with [3:13 PM]

hoglahoo: bekeep? [3:13 PM]

jnicol: so that wil be shown on login and the profile page [3:13 PM]

LFP6: Neat, is this the one talked about at the State of Eterna? [3:13 PM]

jnicol: correct [3:14 PM]

machinelves: ah, that's the fellow giving a chat here, Eli found the other day: http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/2015/02/23/coops-scoop-mind-mainframe-next-citscichat-discusses-citizen-science-games/ [3:14 PM]

jnicol: the state of eterna asle has close captioning now [3:14 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx Elf :) [3:14 PM]

Brourd: I wasn't too thrilled about the survey. [3:14 PM]

jnicol: thanks to Janelle for all her helkp [3:14 PM]

jnicol: *hlp [3:14 PM]

hoglahoo: yeah he mentioned a twitter chat here in chan earlier today [3:14 PM]

machinelves: i saw that Janelle, you're awesome! tanscribing is hard work! :D [3:15 PM]

machinelves: *transcribing, lol [3:15 PM]

jnicol: Cielo24 did the oiginal work [3:15 PM]

jnicol: Janelle helped to clean it up [3:15 PM]

machinelves: nice, thanks to Cielo too! [3:15 PM]

jnicol: there is also a forum thread if anyone would like to help with adding captioning on other videos [3:16 PM]

jnicol: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/close-captioning-crowd-source-project-for-monthly-eterna-meetings [3:16 PM]

hoglahoo: Do we have people requesting captioning? [3:17 PM]

jnicol: we will not have many videos done by Cielo, only those deemed important enough [3:17 PM]

Brourd: Wateronthemoon, hoglahoo. [3:17 PM]

jnicol: @hog, Janelle and wateronthemoon [3:17 PM]

hoglahoo: cool! that we can provide that for themn [3:17 PM]

hoglahoo: plus we can watch on mute from quiet locations :D [3:18 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hogla :) [3:18 PM]

jnicol: Its not live captioning [3:18 PM]

LFP6: ? [3:18 PM]

jnicol: updated within 48 hours [3:18 PM]

LFP6: Mmm [3:18 PM]

hoglahoo: still, nice to have. [3:18 PM]

jnicol: any questions before LFP6 pesents some wiki survey findings? [3:19 PM]

machinelves: personally, i consider researchers who make a living from studying non-consenting participants to be persona non grata, and if there are many more i will likely stop participating. just my 2 cents. so i do hope their "work" is limited to consenting survey filler outers.  [3:19 PM]

machinelves: oh, and they might want to have a spot on that survey for age & explicit consent, what with all the kids present. [3:19 PM]

Brourd: so closed captioning, new leaderboards, synthesis orders, logic gate puzzles for lab, and the Eterna survey. [3:19 PM]

wateronthemoon: Thanks so much everryone. :) Live doesn't matter so much. [3:19 PM]

jnicol: elves, talking about the surveys? [3:19 PM]

machinelves: yep, among other things [3:19 PM]

Hyphema: yes it is. usually i dont watch them until days later and its usually at work.  and i dont have speakers except in my cpu which is on the floor.  so will be nice to read [3:20 PM]

hoglahoo: I'm not sure what surveys you're talking about [3:19 PM]

machinelves: we've become a veritable petri dish... [3:20 PM]

wateronthemoon: what are the surveys? [3:20 PM]

hoglahoo: Hyphema same here [3:20 PM]

jnicol: It is optional [3:20 PM]

Brourd: I suppose we can't release the reasoning behind the survey. [3:20 PM]

machinelves: children cannot give consent, but if you put it on their profile page they are likely to fill it out [3:20 PM]

machinelves: just a heads up [3:20 PM]

wateronthemoon: glad the captioning will help others too [3:20 PM]

jnicol: There should be a news or blog about it [3:20 PM]

Brourd: Since this isn't a research study [3:21 PM]

jnicol: but right now only info is from State of Eterna [3:21 PM]

LFP6: Good point Machine [3:21 PM]

Brourd: At least, from what I understand, this is not something that will be published. [3:21 PM]

machinelves: there are a few researchers actively "studying" us, and the legality of it with regard to consent of children online is already borderline imho [3:21 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://prntscr.com/69v7by [3:22 PM]

hoglahoo: machinelves are you saying it's being proposed to insert surveys into people's profile pages? [3:22 PM]

machinelves: maybe i misread the earlier statement? [3:22 PM]

hoglahoo: I have no idea, must confess I haven't brushed up on the state of eterna [3:22 PM]

jnicol: The opt out / opt in will be on profile page [3:22 PM]

hoglahoo: maybe I should do that before muddying the devchat further :P [3:22 PM]

hoglahoo: ah, ok. [3:22 PM]

wateronthemoon: Eli--a big lol for that one :) [3:22 PM]

Hyphema: funny eli [3:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [3:23 PM]

LFP6: Machine, I think that's something that needs to be put into the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy we don't have (or don't need to explicitly agree to). [3:22 PM]

mat747: eli - good one [3:23 PM]

LFP6: (Or don't know how to find) [3:23 PM]

machinelves: hahaha eli that is the cartoon i was thinking of  [3:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [3:23 PM]

jnicol: when the news/blog comes out, be sure to comment on it :) [3:23 PM]

machinelves: heh, nice try [3:23 PM]

Brourd: Moving on [3:23 PM]

Brourd: Anything else, Jnicol? [3:24 PM]

jnicol: LFP6, you want to talk about the wiki? [3:24 PM]

LFP6: Just sayin' [3:24 PM]

LFP6: Sure! [3:24 PM]

LFP6: The results I gathered show that on average each function is not used much, but each function is used heavily by a couple users. Most users agreed that almost all functions (including those not currently in the wiki) should be focused on. [3:24 PM]

Brourd: wait, wait [3:24 PM]

LFP6: (Actually, there was a function or two barely used, but it was minorly) [3:24 PM]

Brourd: Did you have a consent form on this survey before you release these findings? [3:24 PM]

LFP6: A number of users are willing to help with content, but only a couple for images, skins, design, etc. On a side note, it seems a number of (new) users never pay attention to the community menu, and as such never realize there is a forum, wiki, etc. [3:24 PM]

LFP6: Brourd, nothing personal being given [3:24 PM]

LFP6: Just overview [3:24 PM]

Brourd: So that would be a no [3:25 PM]

LFP6: In designing the new interface, accommodating many workflows will be important, as is enabling efficient use. [3:25 PM]

LFP6: The next step will probably be organizing out the different areas of the wiki hierarchically, defining features, then coming up with templates and designing critical 'landing pages'. [3:25 PM]

LFP6: Past that, final implementation is done and content can be filled. [3:25 PM]

LFP6: B, there's not really any reason to if I'm only releasing generalized averages and un-speecified thoughts [3:25 PM]

wateronthemoon: unspeecified thoughts--i like that [3:26 PM]

LFP6: No answers being shared here. ;) I'm even averaging text! :P [3:26 PM]

wateronthemoon: i have lots of those [3:26 PM]

LFP6: Hehe, true [3:26 PM]

jnicol: LFP6, what would be the next step? Have you been in touch with the players to help out? [3:26 PM]

hoglahoo: do you have a team in place for 'The next step will probably be organizing out the different areas of the wiki hierarchically, defining features, then coming up with templates and designing critical 'landing pages ? [3:27 PM]

hoglahoo: john read my mind [3:27 PM]

LFP6: Well, that's the real next step. :P [3:27 PM]

jnicol: lol :) [3:27 PM]

LFP6: I'll probably be contacting the players who offered to help by PM relitively soon, and direct them to where we can start planning. All are welcome to help, of course! [3:27 PM]

Brourd: What are your plans? [3:28 PM]

jnicol: probably come up with how you envision the look, and draft a 'story book' [3:28 PM]

wateronthemoon: what skills are needed to do that? [3:28 PM]

Brourd: Or does that part come after the dream team? [3:28 PM]

hoglahoo: yeah if you can make public when the planning meeting(s) take place whenever it gets scheduled, that would be great [3:28 PM]

LFP6: I imagine it'll probably be a Wiki page with its corresponding talk page [3:28 PM]

Eli Fisker: Just want to add that for players who wish help add material in the wiki, here is an intro on how to get started:  [3:28 PM]

Eli Fisker: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3hotzntLN9DIGTl4-cM5BN-32nKiDvhz70LonCmWyA/edit [3:28 PM]

hoglahoo: @LFP6, that's a good idea. just by virtue of putting the discussion on the wiki might be a good litmus test as to the willingness of the volunteers to dig into it [3:29 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 thanks for caring about the wiki, any help it gets will be great.  [3:29 PM]

LFP6: Hog, I hadn't really thought of meetings, just a place to work (ie, we don't need to work on it at the same time) [3:29 PM]

LFP6: Water, that depends on what you want to help with [3:29 PM]

Brourd: Indeed, hoglahoo. [3:29 PM]

wateronthemoon: thanks, Eli. Always bringing the ground. [3:29 PM]

hoglahoo: 'direct them to where we can start planning' - somehow I translated that as meeting, wiki page seems much better [3:30 PM]

LFP6: Creating and editing content just needs subject knowledge, typing skills, and decent english mechanics. If you want to work on skins or graphics, you would need to know how to use appropriate tools [3:30 PM]

LFP6: Eli, will deffinitely throw that up there [3:30 PM]

hoglahoo: brainstorming heirarchy, landing pages, etc just requires creativity [3:30 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, thx [3:30 PM]

hoglahoo: and being able to log into the wiki I guess [3:30 PM]

LFP6: And using text. :) [3:30 PM]

Brourd: Here is a question. Will there be a shift to actual wiki conventions? [3:30 PM]

hoglahoo: speech to text! [3:30 PM]

LFP6: Er, writing? Publishing? Whatever [3:30 PM]

LFP6: Conventions? [3:30 PM]

jnicol: Hey, I need to leave in a few minutes, any questions for me before I go? [3:31 PM]

wateronthemoon: I worked for years as an editor and would be glad to help [3:31 PM]

Brourd: Like, I don't know, citations, and such. [3:31 PM]

LFP6: Ah, yeah. [3:31 PM]

jnicol: LFP6, keep me posted and thanks! [3:31 PM]

Brourd: Which we lack quite a bit of as of right now. [3:31 PM]

hoglahoo: John I had a question but it might take me a minute to jog my rusty gears [3:31 PM]

LFP6: I meant to work on that a while back, actually. Hence the red link Manual of Style [3:31 PM]

hoglahoo: oh just remembered, it's something I'll ask later. nevermind! [3:31 PM]

wateronthemoon: exactly--Manual of Style essential [3:31 PM]

jnicol: hog, you are suppose to come here prepared :) [3:32 PM]

hoglahoo: I am always here [3:32 PM]

hoglahoo: you came, not me! [3:32 PM]

Brourd: For example, some player has written a bunch of stuff about X subject, but no citations. [3:32 PM]

LFP6: Water, it would be great to have the help. Do you know if you volunteered through the form? [3:32 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hogla, you are funny [3:32 PM]

LFP6: lol Hog [3:32 PM]

wateronthemoon: haven't seen the form [3:32 PM]

Brourd: Jnicol - anything else in the pipeline? [3:33 PM]

wateronthemoon: link to form? [3:33 PM]

LFP6: Yes, Brourd. It might be a little difficult being that many of this stuff comes from personal experience though. I guess that's a call for more paper-publishing-cite yourself! :) [3:33 PM]

LFP6: The survey, water [3:33 PM]

LFP6: Thought you filled it out [3:33 PM]

jnicol: much more is being talked about, but I just let you about my part [3:34 PM]

wateronthemoon: ummm, dementia showing here, not sure i did :) [3:34 PM]

Brourd: Any plans to further diversify the rankig system? [3:34 PM]

jnicol: will get nando here and possible other team members next time :) [3:34 PM]

LFP6: This: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1X29Og3S0F73IL6SOuOZxiBjrqVrp60dgKhNZCk4Ys9Y/viewform [3:34 PM]

hoglahoo: @wateronthemoon, it was a few weeks ago now I think [3:34 PM]

wateronthemoon: Thanks. missed it. [3:34 PM]

machinelves: thanks jnicol, have a nice day! :) [3:35 PM]

Brourd: And if there are plans to do so, how would you make these easily accessible? [3:35 PM]

jnicol: ok all, thanks for the chat [3:35 PM]

hoglahoo: thanks. [3:35 PM]

Eli Fisker: Bye John [3:35 PM]

wateronthemoon: thanks john bye [3:35 PM]