2014.12.5 Special Community Dev Chat

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On Suggestions Relating to the Community, Primarily Moderation, A Committee Formation, and Player Dev

Adrien Treuille: Hey everyone. [6:30 PM]

lroppy: hi Adrien [6:31 PM]

machinelves: hello! [6:31 PM]

Eli Fisker: hi Adrien :) [6:31 PM]

jandersonlee: hola Adrien [6:30 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hey lroppy [6:31 PM]

LFP6: Hi Adrien and Elves. :) [6:31 PM]

jnicol: Hi Adrien [6:31 PM]

LFP6: And John! [6:31 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hey elves [6:31 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hey jnicol [6:31 PM]

machinelves: hey everybody :D [6:31 PM]

jnicol: hi all :) [6:31 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hey lfp6 [6:31 PM]

Eli Fisker: hi Elf, John and the rest [6:31 PM]

jandersonlee: welcome John Boy [6:31 PM]

Adrien Treuille: eli! nice to hear from you [6:31 PM]

jandersonlee: (sometimes it seems like the Waltons around here) [6:31 PM]

hoglahoo: Adrien! [6:32 PM]

machinelves: hehe [6:32 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hoglahoo! [6:32 PM]

Adrien Treuille: I preferred your previous hat :) [6:32 PM]

Eli Fisker: lol [6:32 PM]

hoglahoo: noted [6:32 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Looks like we have a really nice turnout. :) [6:32 PM]

Eli Fisker: and agree [6:32 PM]

Adrien Treuille: lot's of familiar names and faces [6:33 PM]

jandersonlee: no sign of Nando? [6:32 PM]

LFP6: Hog doesn't even have a hat now! [6:33 PM]

hoglahoo: well, a wig apparently [6:33 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Thank you all for coming. [6:33 PM]

hoglahoo: it'll be fairly late for nando I guess [6:33 PM]

LFP6: Glad to be here, thanks for coming in! [6:33 PM]

Adrien Treuille: I know that we have folks all around the world and it's not as nice a time for everyone. [6:34 PM]

machinelves: thanks for being here Adrien! [6:34 PM]

Adrien Treuille: So basically, I was hoping to keep this informal. [6:34 PM]

Adrien Treuille: As you know, I’ve always been equally passionate about the science as about the community itself. [6:34 PM]

Adrien Treuille: And one of the greatest things about Eterna has been the wonderful community that we've built around it. [6:35 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Sometimes I wish my scientific colleagues got along as well as the Eterna community does.  [6:35 PM]

Adrien Treuille: :) [6:35 PM]

jandersonlee: e chat and forum and wiki have helped with that [6:35 PM]

LFP6: *Laugh track here* [6:35 PM]

machinelves: hehe thanks :D [6:35 PM]

jandersonlee: it's self selecting in a way [6:36 PM]

LFP6: @JAL Forum could be better structured in that regard, really ticket-focused, not discussion [6:36 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Of course, we've recently had problems with spam, and we still do. [6:36 PM]

Adrien Treuille: (Thank you, JNicol for your help there!) [6:36 PM]

jnicol: I agree, I think we have a great community here! [6:36 PM]

LFP6: Better recently, from what I've seen [6:36 PM]

lroppy: kudos there [6:36 PM]

machinelves: thanks jnicol for all your spamfighting efforts :D [6:36 PM]

hoglahoo: sometimes we get questionable puzzle titles too [6:36 PM]

LFP6: There was one I just saw... [6:36 PM]

LFP6: *Cough* [6:36 PM]

lroppy: true. one today [6:37 PM]

Adrien Treuille: In fact, I hope that everyone gets the chance to thank jnicol for stepping up and joining the dev team and helping to keep eterna healthy! [6:37 PM]

lroppy: mostly those have been manageable issues (spam and titling) [6:37 PM]

jnicol: ok, I see it, [6:37 PM]

LFP6: Thanks :D [6:37 PM]

jandersonlee: much appreciated [6:37 PM]

hoglahoo: it's on my list of things to do :) [6:37 PM]

LFP6: Ooh, content filter would be cool [6:37 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hey all [6:37 PM]

machinelves: jnicol has been doing an awesome job! ( round of applause ) [6:38 PM]

Adrien Treuille: but notwithstanding those issues, it's pretty amazing that we've been able to keep such an open portal on the web so nice and squeakly clean [6:38 PM]

LFP6: Hiya Tomoe [6:38 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yup, we apprechiate the spammers getting less easy pass [6:38 PM]

wateronthemoon: yes, thanks to jnicol for being so available [6:38 PM]

LFP6: And Water, good to see you [6:38 PM]

machinelves: yes this is my favorite community on the great wide interwebz [6:38 PM]

wateronthemoon: good to see you too.  [6:38 PM]

Adrien Treuille: it feels more liek a respectful scientific community -- which it is! -- than the open internet... and I'm certain that that's been critical to our success thus far [6:38 PM]

Adrien Treuille: and it will be critical to our success in the future [6:38 PM]

jandersonlee: common interests and diverse strategies [6:38 PM]

LFP6: I know that is what Foldit at least was like... Seems like it's gotten a little torn though [6:38 PM]

wateronthemoon: And LFP, just did a hogla puzzle that was "just for  [6:39 PM]

Adrien Treuille: (hey tomoe!) [6:39 PM]

wateronthemoon: you [6:39 PM]

lroppy: might want to consider a governance model [6:39 PM]

lroppy: where players have some say [6:39 PM]

machinelves: i really appreciate that the people here are always helping each other, and working cooperatively. just had a new player comment how they appreciated that we have a good community here. makes me happy to see :) [6:39 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that's not a bad idea. [6:39 PM]

Adrien Treuille: thank you lroppy [6:39 PM]

LFP6: Elections? :P [6:39 PM]

lroppy: in development and scientific prioriies [6:39 PM]

Adrien Treuille: so that's a great segue [6:39 PM]

LFP6: @L Ah [6:40 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Rhiju and I are really passionate about the game [6:40 PM]

lroppy: so say we all [6:40 PM]

Adrien Treuille: but our expertise is more science and computers than community [6:40 PM]

machinelves: hehe lroppy i wanted to thank you for pointing out the need for points opportunities to be egalitarian, thanks to you, Brourd, and Jnicol for finding a compromise there [6:40 PM]

lroppy: true, we were able to work it out [6:40 PM]

machinelves: I think continued calibration of the points system in labs will help get players spending time where it is most useful to science [6:40 PM]

lroppy: but it felt lucky and ad hoc that it happened [6:40 PM]

Adrien Treuille: so I was wondering what techncial tools or other mechanisms people thought we could implement to help you all maintain such a wonderful community [6:41 PM]

LFP6: Seems like a common thread to me... So little development that's able to happen, I'm feeling less confident in the growth of the platform [6:41 PM]

lroppy: hence perhaps need for more formal governance (like advisory council or boared of any non-profit endeavor) [6:41 PM]

machinelves: that's an awesome question and i'm really pleased to see your support in this, thank you :D [6:41 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: then it may make sense to have a governance body.. [6:41 PM]

LFP6: (Was @ Lroppy) [6:41 PM]

jandersonlee: for chat - having some regulars be ops would be good (covers time zones more easily) [6:41 PM]

lroppy: we already do that JAL [6:42 PM]

LFP6: It's Nando, Brourd, and Hog currently, right? [6:42 PM]

jandersonlee: good start [6:42 PM]

LFP6: They should have deletion/edit rights for site content too IMO [6:42 PM]

LFP6: Maybe? Thoughts? [6:42 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: maybe have more? not all of them can be on all the time [6:42 PM]

lroppy: i believe I can ban trolls roo [6:43 PM]

hoglahoo: I don't consider myself a governor [6:43 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: maybe [6:42 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: haha [6:43 PM]

jandersonlee: @hoglahoo - no you're the chairmain and Eli is da mayor [6:43 PM]

Jieux: Good evening friends! [6:43 PM]

machinelves: hi jieux! :D [6:43 PM]

LFP6: Hi Jieux [6:43 PM]

wateronthemoon: Yes, Eli is the mayor, and the Librarian [6:44 PM]

jandersonlee: but point being that some content managers might be good too [6:43 PM]

lroppy: good discussion folks - I need to head out for dinner.  adios.  thx to all for particiapting.  someone, please post [6:44 PM]

LFP6: Ouch [6:44 PM]

wateronthemoon: hi jieux and everyone [6:44 PM]

machinelves: bye lroppy :) [6:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: Bye Lroppy  [6:44 PM]

Adrien Treuille: bye lroppy [6:44 PM]

LFP6: y L [6:44 PM]

machinelves: hi water :) [6:44 PM]

Jieux: Later Lroppy. [6:44 PM]

hoglahoo: Eli for mayor is a slogan I can get behind. seriously though, the main chat governence I've seen needed is local - ie when school classes arrive, where are there instructors? [6:44 PM]

wateronthemoon: hi elves [6:44 PM]

hoglahoo: their* [6:44 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: see ya, lroppy [6:44 PM]

hoglahoo: bye lroppy [6:44 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok [6:44 PM]

JSci: touche, hoglahoo [6:44 PM]

machinelves: hogla that's a great question, it would be awesome to recruit teachers themselves to help manage the kids [6:44 PM]

wateronthemoon: good point, hoglahoo [6:45 PM]

Adrien Treuille: so if we had a governing committee [6:45 PM]

jandersonlee: alas, students are on not just during class [6:44 PM]

LFP6: @Adrien: Two of my main thoughts are player dev so stuff can get done, and a full EternaU platform for presentation of learning materials (that's an old one!) [6:45 PM]

jandersonlee: (biology class) [6:44 PM]

hoglahoo: JSci well most of them are fine, there are sometimes some noisy ones I guess [6:45 PM]

Adrien Treuille: what would be the right mechanism to decide who gets on it [6:45 PM]

JSci: most fine, some noisy [6:45 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Adrien, for the player devs? [6:45 PM]

LFP6: Need to grab dinner quick. be back soon [6:45 PM]

jandersonlee: I'm fine with leaving it in your hands [6:45 PM]

machinelves: bye lfp :) [6:46 PM]

Adrien Treuille: well, let's start with the governing commitee idea [6:46 PM]

Eli Fisker: Bye LFP [6:46 PM]

Adrien Treuille: then we can get onto player devs [6:46 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: alrighty [6:46 PM]

hoglahoo: could we flesh out the reasons/purpose of a governing committee just a tad? [6:46 PM]

jandersonlee: don't need to get too into automating e-commities and elections [6:46 PM]

Jieux: By LFP6 [6:46 PM]

machinelves: what would be the roles of the committee? [6:46 PM]

Adrien Treuille: right. so that's another good question [6:46 PM]

machinelves: like for moderating chat? [6:46 PM]

Adrien Treuille: I could imagine various powers [6:47 PM]

Adrien Treuille: chat banning privaleges [6:47 PM]

jandersonlee: capabilities in the software sense [6:47 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: right [6:47 PM]

Adrien Treuille: content deletion privaleges [6:47 PM]

machinelves: i think it depends on the authorities granted [6:47 PM]

hoglahoo: ok, a moderating team [6:47 PM]

hoglahoo: I understand [6:47 PM]

wateronthemoon: don't want it to become too beaurocratic  [6:47 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: right [6:47 PM]

Adrien Treuille: yeah.. moderation committee [6:47 PM]

wateronthemoon: moderating is a good word [6:47 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: because that kind of takes away from the point of eterna [6:47 PM]

machinelves: perhaps consensus based wherever possible [6:48 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @water: I agree with you, we should approach this with a light touch and see what helps [6:48 PM]

wateronthemoon: omg! I just became a millionaire! :D [6:48 PM]

Adrien Treuille: we will approach moderation in moderation :) [6:48 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: maybe have elections? [6:48 PM]

machinelves: hehe [6:48 PM]

Eli Fisker: lol [6:48 PM]

wateronthemoon: haha [6:48 PM]

jandersonlee: aside from content management (which I think we agree on) are there other areas that could use player input? [6:48 PM]

JSci: Awesome!@water [6:49 PM]

Eli Fisker: Congrats, Moon [6:49 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: haha [6:49 PM]

hoglahoo: good job wateronthemoon [6:49 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: nice job, h2o [6:49 PM]

Brourd: I do not believe there is a need for a bunch of players to be defining content on Eterna. [5:49 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @brourd: ok so that's a good point [6:49 PM]

wateronthemoon: thanks, all. Surreal! so when does the $ arrive? [6:49 PM]

Jieux: Glad I could pop in... look forward to seeing the chatlog. Sorry I can't participate. I'm behind Eli for Governor. [6:50 PM]

Adrien Treuille: what problems would such a moderation committee solve? [6:50 PM]

machinelves: i think there is a role for player input. i can also see the need for concentrated impartial moderation and work just keeping forums and chat in order, which takes time that I'm not sure players themselves either have bandwidth for, or should be personally responsible for [6:50 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hehe, good one, Moon [6:50 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: maybe banning people? [6:50 PM]

machinelves: bye jieux :) [6:50 PM]

wateronthemoon: banning people? [6:50 PM]

hoglahoo: a formal mod team would be professional - I kind of like the charm eterna has of not having something so defined though. it has been a fairly well selfmaintained community from the bit I've seen [6:50 PM]

jandersonlee: warn before ban [6:50 PM]

rhiju: hi all -- sorry to join in late, reviewing chat log [6:51 PM]

machinelves: players already invest a lot of hours in doing labs, so beaurocratic matters might be more appropriate on dev side [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: hi Rhiju [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hey Rhiju [6:51 PM]

jnicol: welcome rhiju [6:51 PM]

Brourd: Yes, we need a vote of 20 people to ban an individual. Please hold while we gather them all. [5:51 PM]

machinelves: hi rhiju! :D [6:51 PM]

Brourd: Hey Rhiju. [5:51 PM]

wateronthemoon: hi rhiju [6:51 PM]

Adrien Treuille: it would be nice if moderator just had a "spam" button next to posts / people [6:51 PM]

jandersonlee: :; B [6:51 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hey rhiju.. in chat and in person ;) [6:51 PM]

hoglahoo: yep, a spam button for mods and a flag button for everyone [6:51 PM]

wateronthemoon: people are mostly pretty good here [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: Great idea, Hogla [6:51 PM]

Adrien Treuille: what is the flag button? [6:52 PM]

rhiju: would the spam hide all of the player's messages, chat, etc. or specific messages? [6:52 PM]

hoglahoo: there should be a flag button next to everything that players can input, this is pretty common on internet communities [6:52 PM]

wateronthemoon: just ocassional span [6:52 PM]

machinelves: hogla & adrien, integrated trackable tools for moderating chat would help [6:52 PM]

jandersonlee: +1 spam/flag [6:51 PM]

rhiju: *spam button [6:52 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: to flag players [6:52 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: maybe as a warning [6:52 PM]

wateronthemoon: flag sounds great [6:52 PM]

Adrien Treuille: what would the flag button do? [6:52 PM]

hoglahoo: you hit the flag button, the moderator team gets pinged at periodic intervals [6:52 PM]

jnicol: Currently, hoglahoo, Nando, Brourd, Eli and myself are mods that have ban capabilities [6:52 PM]

Adrien Treuille: I see [6:52 PM]

hoglahoo: "someone hit the flag button. if they gave a reason, here it is" [6:52 PM]

jnicol: and spam comes in quickly, that I run a script to remove spammers automatically [6:52 PM]

jandersonlee: with alink to the page [6:52 PM]

hoglahoo: naturally, that requires volunteers to manage [6:52 PM]

wateronthemoon: maybetter to communicate with flagged person first? [6:53 PM]

hoglahoo: jnicol, I believe that mat, lroppy, and hotcreek also have this ability [6:53 PM]

jandersonlee: @jnicl - right, flag is for what the script misses [6:53 PM]

machinelves: forum post on chat moderation strategies: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/chat_trolls [6:53 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: is hotcreek on, though? [6:53 PM]

hoglahoo: no, just being trivial for more completeness [6:53 PM]

jnicol: probably truehog, just have not seen them use that ability yet [6:53 PM]

LFP6: Back [6:53 PM]

LFP6: Hi Rhiju.:) [6:53 PM]

wateronthemoon: chat etiquette guidelines? [6:54 PM]

Brourd: There is already a code of conduct. [5:54 PM]

wateronthemoon: oh. Where is it? [6:54 PM]

machinelves: thanks hogla for adding the CoC to linkbot, and john for adding it to the menu [6:54 PM]

machinelves: .conduct [6:54 PM]

Brourd: http://eternagame.org/web/conduct/ [5:55 PM]

jandersonlee: @B - link code of conduct higher under communit or About? [6:54 PM]

hoglahoo: LinkBot is currently asleep [6:54 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: or maybe have players read/agree to follow code of conduct? (although it won't happen) [6:55 PM]

machinelves: hehe may linkbot dream of electric sheep [6:55 PM]

wateronthemoon: or make it part of new player initiations? [6:55 PM]

jandersonlee: ah - under Help [6:54 PM]

jnicol: Code Of Conduct is under the Help menu item [6:55 PM]

wateronthemoon: haha elves [6:55 PM]

machinelves: tomoe good idea, i think John considered something like that [6:55 PM]

hoglahoo: Tomoe: there should be a link to it at the top of the chat window at all times, and the full text of it should appear in an accept/deny window on registration, in my opinion [6:55 PM]

machinelves: eula on signup [6:55 PM]

machinelves: along with creative commons license [6:56 PM]

LFP6: Are new users required to agree to s Terms of Service/Privacy Policy currently? [6:56 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that's actually a good idea [6:56 PM]

LFP6: Seems like a big-old legal gap if not [6:56 PM]

jandersonlee: who reads EULAs? [6:56 PM]

Eli Fisker: Agree with Machineleves. They have this on Foldit [6:56 PM]

wateronthemoon: that sounds very reasonable [6:56 PM]

hoglahoo: yeah but they don't physically have to look at it [6:56 PM]

machinelves: i do >.< hehe [6:56 PM]

LFP6: I do! [6:56 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: >.< haha [6:56 PM]

jnicol: It is not on the registration page, but I can put it there [6:56 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: maybe if you made it mandatory then [6:56 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: john, that could work [6:56 PM]

Adrien Treuille: that would be great jnicol! [6:57 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, that would be great [6:57 PM]

jandersonlee: scroll, scroll, scroll, click [6:56 PM]

LFP6: At least it's something that is actually there, and blocks any issues legally when things aren't defined [6:57 PM]

machinelves: some have you at least scroll to bottom before making okay button clickable [6:57 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yeah [6:57 PM]

machinelves: yes jlee hehe [6:57 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok [6:57 PM]

LFP6: Where is the EULA if there is one? [6:57 PM]

LFP6: Not in the footer [6:57 PM]

Adrien Treuille: so given that we have limited development cycles (more on that next) [6:57 PM]

hoglahoo: bury the "accept" button between the sentence that says "play nice" and the one that says "or else" [6:57 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: haha hog [6:57 PM]

LFP6: lolz [6:57 PM]

jnicol: A link on the reg page and wording that says the user agrees to the conduct and open source licences [6:57 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [6:57 PM]

machinelves: it would help to get more funding and bring john on full time [6:58 PM]

wateronthemoon: haha hogla [6:58 PM]

LFP6: What about a ToS/Privacy Policy though? [6:58 PM]

Adrien Treuille: do people think that it would be of significant benefit to the community to have a moderation comittee [6:58 PM]

wateronthemoon: Play Nice [6:58 PM]

machinelves: we can think of plenty for him to do :D [6:58 PM]

Adrien Treuille: and invest it with special powers? [6:58 PM]

Eli Fisker: Very much agree with Elves [6:58 PM]

LFP6: Everyone has one! [6:58 PM]

Adrien Treuille: or would the net effect on the community be minimal? [6:58 PM]

jandersonlee: committee sounds very formal, but in principle yes [6:58 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: I don't think the net effect would be minimal [6:58 PM]

machinelves: on committee, it depends on the roles involved [6:59 PM]

Hyphema: it seems to me we have a moderation committe (loosely)  its Jnicol, nando, hog, eli and brourd. [6:59 PM]

hoglahoo: I don't foresee a formalized group with formalized responsibilities to player input being significantly beneficial compared to the added duties and time requirements it could incur. [6:59 PM]

jandersonlee: adding spam/flag might help them [6:59 PM]

machinelves: some things are more appropriately dev side [6:59 PM]

LFP6: I think the organization and definition would be helpful, if nothing else to make sure things are taken care of and that there's on abuse of power [6:59 PM]

Nando: I'm no moderator, I just have short fuses, that's all [6:59 PM]

hoglahoo: eterna is just not busy enough to warrant it imo [6:59 PM]

Adrien Treuille: janders + tomoe: can you give general examples (without naming folks of course) of the kind of behaviour this could help alleviate? [6:59 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yeah [6:59 PM]

Brourd: I concur with hoglahoo. [6:00 PM]

jandersonlee: mikes puzzle that f888ing easy [6:59 PM]

Nando: @hog: agreed with you [7:00 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: and then just trolls in general? [7:00 PM]

LFP6: Hey Nando [7:00 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: there was an incident last week, I think. [7:00 PM]

Nando: hi LFP et al [7:00 PM]

wateronthemoon: what was it tomoe [7:00 PM]

machinelves: hey nando :) glad you could make it [7:00 PM]

jandersonlee: perhaps nondev moderators could suspend an account and reserve a full ba/delete for dev? [7:00 PM]

wateronthemoon: hi nando :) [7:01 PM]

machinelves: @jl agreed [7:01 PM]

LFP6: Yeah, full privilage should be admin [7:01 PM]

LFP6: (Permanent stuff) [7:01 PM]

LFP6: Temp bans actually aren't too uncommon of a principal [7:01 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: someone was giving out somebody's (real/fake is unknown) information [7:01 PM]

LFP6: On Foldit [7:02 PM]

LFP6: ? [7:02 PM]

LFP6: Oh, nvm [7:02 PM]

LFP6: I get it [7:02 PM]

machinelves: no, though LFP is talking about another incident we don't want here, which is a foldit moderator posted IPs in live chat [7:02 PM]

Adrien Treuille: yes.. that's a good example tomoe [7:02 PM]

jandersonlee: what about othe community constructing/building possibilities [7:02 PM]

machinelves: tomoe's talking about valinor [7:02 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yep. [7:02 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: couldn't remember the name, thx elves [7:02 PM]

wateronthemoon: what did valinor do? [7:03 PM]

LFP6: What happened to no names...? :P [7:03 PM]

Brourd: The incident TomoeUzumaki is referring to is actually one where two accounts were logged in from the same IP mask. Essentially, children. [6:03 PM]

JSci: yes, tomoe [7:03 PM]

machinelves: hackers posting info of minors in chat lose privileges [7:03 PM]

JSci: f****ing puzzle is offensive [7:03 PM]

jandersonlee: is there somethig that could help us to work together better? [7:03 PM]

hoglahoo: conference in tahiti [7:04 PM]

wateronthemoon: yes, elves [7:04 PM]

hoglahoo: paid* [7:04 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: haha that [7:04 PM]

LFP6: lol yep [7:04 PM]

wateronthemoon: haha [7:04 PM]

LFP6: @Machine: Hackers posting info of ANYONE [7:04 PM]

LFP6: Really [7:04 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: doesn't matter who. [7:04 PM]

LFP6: Minors especially, but [7:04 PM]

hoglahoo: if you have a formal moderating team, you'll have to provide a forum for them to discuss things in. there will be rotation of moderators and politicizing of things we don't even imagine now [7:05 PM]

hoglahoo: and with a low volunteer base such as we have, there will be strain [7:05 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yeah, that could work [7:05 PM]

hoglahoo: these are my predictions of doom and gloom that may not be accurate [7:05 PM]

Brourd: The infrastructure required to implement a "moderation committee" as well. [6:05 PM]

hoglahoo: but are frequent in online communities that *require* moderating [7:05 PM]

machinelves: brourd is correct, 2 accounts from same address; whether pretend or real hack, sets a bad example, definitely crosses the line of tolerable behavior [7:05 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok... let's pull back from specific examples [7:06 PM]

Adrien Treuille: :) [7:06 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :) [7:06 PM]

hoglahoo: :) [7:06 PM]

wateronthemoon: so who looks for those things now? [7:06 PM]

wateronthemoon: and how often does it happen? [7:06 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @hoglahoo.. you're right that we don't want to impose a further burden  [7:06 PM]

machinelves: i think players already invest a lot of time in labs, hours and hours. i'm not sure we can ask them to take on additional major responsibilities. [7:06 PM]

Adrien Treuille: or make things too beaurocratic [7:06 PM]

LFP6: Yeah [7:06 PM]

jandersonlee: agreed [7:06 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that's what I was going to say, actually [7:06 PM]

wateronthemoon: agreed [7:07 PM]

machinelves: i'd like to see professional support for moderation and project management [7:07 PM]

Brourd: Actually, lroppy's original request was not moderation of the community. [6:07 PM]

LFP6: Solid, but not stuck-up [7:07 PM]

LFP6: If you catch my drift [7:07 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @brourd? [7:07 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @broud - go on.. :) [7:07 PM]

Brourd: But a committee to deal with the site and scientific development and direction Eterna takes. [6:07 PM]

jandersonlee: is there anything that would help people collaborate on the science? [7:07 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok [7:07 PM]

Adrien Treuille: so that brings us to the next question  [7:08 PM]

Adrien Treuille: which is player devs [7:08 PM]

LFP6: I think trackers included that for site/app development at least [7:08 PM]

jandersonlee: and what would a player dev do? [7:09 PM]

mat747: hi [7:09 PM]

machinelves: maybe a process would help with the committee side. the whole community is a committee. with clear process, we can apply standards [7:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: hi Mat :) [7:09 PM]

LFP6: Hi Mat [7:09 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hey mat [7:09 PM]

machinelves: hi mat! [7:10 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hi mat [7:10 PM]

wateronthemoon: hi mat [7:10 PM]

machinelves: i think the issue tracker will help with this [7:10 PM]

LFP6: @JAL: What normal developers would, but probably without the ability to release [7:10 PM]

machinelves: and a method for determining priority of issues [7:10 PM]

jandersonlee: so access to teh code base for development [7:10 PM]

jandersonlee: fwe people would have that ability/skill [7:10 PM]

jandersonlee: *few [7:10 PM]

Brourd: Indeed, jandersonlee. [6:11 PM]

LFP6: There were a few who were interested [7:11 PM]

LFP6: @Elves: That was the goal for the trackers [7:11 PM]

Nando: sadly, some do have abilities, but haven't been able to participate [7:11 PM]

machinelves: i assume player dev is sandboxed instances with code review before merge, which does put some bandwidth on john, so it would have to be limited anyway [7:11 PM]

Adrien Treuille: yews [7:11 PM]

jandersonlee: certainly worth pursuing in special cases [7:11 PM]

Adrien Treuille: yes, elves [7:11 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that could work [7:12 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Rhiju and I are discussing the player dev issue right now [7:12 PM]

Adrien Treuille: it's actually not so simple to create that kind of sandboxed environment [7:12 PM]

machinelves: :) [7:12 PM]

jandersonlee: refactor then ? [7:12 PM]

LFP6: Git dos a bunch of the work, does it not? [7:12 PM]

Adrien Treuille: that would become a project in itself, probably a lot bigger and more complicated than anything the player devs themselves would do... like implementing mod tools; [7:12 PM]

Adrien Treuille: the question isn't git [7:13 PM]

Adrien Treuille: it's more the database design [7:13 PM]

jandersonlee: it's the db I would guess [7:13 PM]

machinelves: and while players can test & vote on implemented features in instances, there still would need to be a code review. i agree a big project [7:13 PM]

Adrien Treuille: code review is actually not nearly as hard [7:13 PM]

LFP6: Ah [7:13 PM]

Adrien Treuille: we could do that [7:13 PM]

Adrien Treuille: Id [7:14 PM]

LFP6: And random comment of the moment, background music like this could be cool: https://www.jamendo.com/en/track/221334/beautiful-flow [7:14 PM]

Adrien Treuille: I'd have to check with Jee, but I don't think things are set up so that we could have player devs without trusting them with a lot of eterna data [7:14 PM]

LFP6: Sorry, off topic. :( [7:14 PM]

machinelves: yep [7:14 PM]

LFP6: Oh, yeah, I see that issue [7:14 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that could be a problem, true [7:14 PM]

jandersonlee: so are there other forms of collaboration that might be easier to work with than coding? [7:15 PM]

Adrien Treuille: well, everyone was nominating eli to be mayor :) [7:15 PM]

chamariver: how often does rhiju and other scientists create RNA we might design? [7:15 PM]

Adrien Treuille: is there any unanimous nominations for a trusted player dev? [7:15 PM]

machinelves: seconded :D [7:15 PM]

wateronthemoon: I vote for Eli :) [7:15 PM]

jandersonlee: but not chief programmer [7:15 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: my vote goes to Eli [7:16 PM]

jandersonlee: Nando for Player dev - but I don't know he has time [7:16 PM]

LFP6: @JAL: Coding is where we need significant manpower though [7:16 PM]

Brourd: He doesn't, but give it to him anyway. [6:16 PM]

jnicol: Nando is already helping out :) [7:16 PM]

machinelves: on benefits of player dev, can't help but wonder: http://xkcd.com/1319/ [7:16 PM]

wateronthemoon: yes, Nando too [7:16 PM]

hoglahoo: Nando isn't here to say no, now's the time to get him in [7:16 PM]

Nando: :D [7:17 PM]

hoglahoo: oh snap [7:17 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [7:17 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :) [7:17 PM]

LFP6: XD [7:17 PM]

Adrien Treuille: hahaha :) [7:17 PM]

wateronthemoon: :) [7:17 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok [7:18 PM]

Adrien Treuille: we have 5-10 more minutes [7:18 PM]

machinelves: i think if we have bandwidth to implement a solid way for players to tinker that is awesome [7:18 PM]

machinelves: but we have serious UX issues in labs needing professional dev [7:18 PM]

jandersonlee: tinker in what ways? [7:18 PM]

machinelves: and if john has limited bandwidth, i vote to focus [7:18 PM]

Adrien Treuille: before a bunch of Stanford folks are going to meet for the Eterna meeting [7:18 PM]

Brourd: Nando is currently trying to build the Eterna flash app for the development of better parameters for the NN model. Perhaps you can get somebody to help him with that, Adrien? [6:19 PM]

machinelves: @jl scripts, assisting jnicol in bug fixing & feature implementation [7:18 PM]

Eli Fisker: I agree with Elf [7:18 PM]

LFP6: I really think that there is a huge amount of stuff that really should be implimented, but we don't have the manpower [7:18 PM]

chamariver: how often does rhiju and other scientists create RNA we might design?  [7:18 PM]

jnicol: Nando has volunteered to work on the flash interface [7:19 PM]

Nando: one online session with Jee, for John and I, ought to do it [7:19 PM]

jnicol: as I see it, player-devs would specialize in certain areas [7:19 PM]

Eli Fisker: @John, cool [7:19 PM]

hoglahoo: @chamariver, codygeary seems to be a scientist creating rna for us to design pretty regularly [7:19 PM]

machinelves: i think we already ask a lot of players [7:19 PM]

rhiju: there's a great thing about that idea (nando as a flash player dev) [7:19 PM]

jnicol: lfp6 for instance is interested in the mobile side [7:19 PM]

machinelves: i'd like to not ask more of them, but to give them help [7:19 PM]

hoglahoo: rhiju do tell [7:20 PM]

jandersonlee: (if I was retired .. and single ...) [7:19 PM]

rhiju: the flash game is now in a github repo [7:20 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: help in terms of what? [7:20 PM]

LFP6: @Rhiju: Public? [7:20 PM]

rhiju: so we can set it up so that nando could commit changes to a branch, but we only merge after code review [7:20 PM]

Adrien Treuille: so let me summarize before we have to go: (1) there's some support for a moderation committte, (2) unanimous support for eli to be mayor, and (3) unanimous support for nando to be player dev :) [7:20 PM]

Adrien Treuille: is that so? [7:20 PM]

Nando: @rhiju: I found it and already submitted a couple patches [7:20 PM]

machinelves: hehe @ adrien agreed [7:21 PM]

jandersonlee: AT +1 [7:20 PM]

Brourd: Nando is just on top of things. [6:21 PM]

LFP6: Yep. And a calling for player dev to happen so things can start happening (least for me) [7:21 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hehe yep. [7:21 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok [7:21 PM]

Adrien Treuille: well, that's extremely helpful folks [7:21 PM]

rhiju: @nando, you did? can you paste the link inhere? (do we have more than one repo) [7:21 PM]

LFP6: Well, player dev happening is kinda wrapped in there, isn't it? :D [7:21 PM]

Nando: that repo is private [7:21 PM]

rhiju: nando we can take this offline -- love the idea of getting your help on flash [7:21 PM]

machinelves: and a huge thanks to players & devs & scientists for everything. you each make this community what it is [7:21 PM]

hoglahoo: dun dun dun [7:21 PM]

chamariver: so by regulary, you mean, [1] once a day [2] once a week, [3] once a month etc...? [7:21 PM]

rhiju: @nando, right so did you already submit patches? [7:22 PM]

mat747: adrien - could you review and Comment on https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/chat_trolls ? [7:22 PM]

wateronthemoon: yes, thanks to everyone :) [7:22 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @mat - will check now [7:22 PM]

Nando: a couple tiny things that have been bugging me for years, yes [7:22 PM]

JSci: agree w/elves [7:22 PM]

Nando: gimme a sec [7:22 PM]

hoglahoo: nando is already a player dev and we are just finding out [7:22 PM]

machinelves: hehe [7:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [7:23 PM]

wateronthemoon: :) [7:23 PM]

machinelves: nando is from the matrix and he's here to help us :D [7:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: Go Nando! [7:23 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: you can do it! [7:23 PM]

hoglahoo: mat thanks for that, I would like to see adrien's input there too [7:23 PM]

rhiju: oh yea! its in master too! [7:23 PM]

Adrien Treuille: @mat - we've been working a lot to get rid of trolls [7:23 PM]

wateronthemoon: yay nando! [7:23 PM]

Adrien Treuille: especially jnicol [7:23 PM]

mat747: hog - np thx [7:23 PM]

machinelves: thanks mat! [7:24 PM]

chamariver: so by regulary, you mean, [1] once a day [2] once a week, [3] once a month , or what ? [7:24 PM]

hoglahoo: @chamariver, maybe 5 per week lately? [7:24 PM]

hoglahoo: it's of his own personal accord as far as I know [7:24 PM]

mat747: adrien - we need feedback, that thats a big issue [7:24 PM]

rhiju: @nando, are your fixes in the game? [7:24 PM]

machinelves: adrien & rhiju thank you for taking the time to meet with us. it means a lot that you care, and it's nice just to see your names in chat :) [7:24 PM]

LFP6: Yes [7:24 PM]

jnicol: @chamariver, regularly do what? [7:24 PM]

chamariver: OK. thatss more frequent than i expected. good : D [7:24 PM]

Nando: @rhiju: don't think so [7:25 PM]

Nando: I only found the repo, I have no idea how's the building & distribution process, that's John's business [7:25 PM]

LFP6: @Nando: How did you find it? [7:25 PM]

hoglahoo: @chamariver, there is always stuff going in lab too [7:26 PM]

rhiju: ok, so we'de have to do a pulll on the actual  server -- let's discuss offline with john [7:26 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: adrien and rhiju, this was an extremely beneficial chat, thank you so much. [7:25 PM]

Adrien Treuille: ok [7:26 PM]

rhiju: thanks everyone! [7:26 PM]

Adrien Treuille: rhiju and I have to get going [7:26 PM]

Adrien Treuille: thank you all!! [7:26 PM]