2014.09.10 Dev Chat

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On NOVA Buttons & Spam

jnicol: Hi everyone [3:03 PM]

machinelves: hello! :D [3:03 PM]

jnicol: Hi elves! [3:03 PM]

jnicol: welcome to dev chat [3:03 PM]

janetmason: Hi [3:03 PM]

machinelves: how's it going? great job getting the wiki back up! [3:03 PM]

jnicol: thanks, glad it is back up also [3:04 PM]

machinelves: hehe it may seem like a quiet little part of eterna, but we sure missed it when gone [3:04 PM]

jnicol: I saw some hacking attempts and was glad it stood up [3:04 PM]

machinelves: interesting, ya there's been some random account creations over there testing, glad to hear it weathered the storm [3:05 PM]

machinelves: and some chat shenanigans lately too, possibly unrelated [3:05 PM]

jnicol: I saw your request for the blog, and will set it up [3:05 PM]

machinelves: awesome, thank you! [3:05 PM]

jnicol: I saw hog took care of them :) [3:05 PM]

machinelves: hehe w00t! hog ftw! [3:05 PM]

jnicol: also, I am behind on some requests, the Nova links are still near the top of the list :) [3:06 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hi John and Elf :) [3:06 PM]

jnicol: Hi Eli [3:06 PM]

machinelves: probably the #1 thing on my list today is followup on NOVA buttons, and to know if you need any more info on how to implement from the list from Eli? [3:06 PM]

machinelves: hi Eli! :D [3:06 PM]

machinelves: awesome thanks John, glad to hear it. [3:06 PM]

Eli Fisker: Very glad to hear that Nova are on top of the list [3:07 PM]

machinelves: just let me know if there's anything I can do to help [3:07 PM]

jnicol: thank you [3:07 PM]

machinelves: thank you! [3:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: We will very soon get a lot of new players [3:07 PM]

machinelves: it will make a huge difference for the kids coming in from school [3:07 PM]

machinelves: yes exactly [3:07 PM]

jnicol: Is there a new promo? [3:07 PM]

machinelves: not sure, that would be good to know [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: I don't know for sure when [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: Just that it will likely happen [3:08 PM]

jnicol: guess the change of season will bring more players [3:08 PM]

machinelves: but teachers use eterna in the classroom, and last year we got a whole classroom signed up [3:08 PM]

jnicol: no more playing outside :) [3:08 PM]

machinelves: and with the NOVA tutorials, it's another vector for them to find us by [3:08 PM]

machinelves: hehe [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: Lol, John [3:09 PM]

machinelves: hey now with photon browser for iphone i can play eterna on mobile... very very very slowly [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: Elf, hehe [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: Propably a sign to not play eterna on your mobile [3:10 PM]

machinelves: waiting for my neural link implant so i can run around in the sunshine and think RNA into existence [3:10 PM]

hoglahoo: there's at least one spammer online now as we speak [3:10 PM]

machinelves: yes, lol, i don't really.  [3:10 PM]

machinelves: thanks hogla! [3:10 PM]

machinelves: good to see you, and thanks for your spam lazors [3:11 PM]

hoglahoo: Don't thank me, I didn't invite them! [3:11 PM]

jnicol: the forum was cleaned up at least [3:11 PM]

machinelves: lol [3:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hi Hogla [3:11 PM]

hoglahoo: good to see you too :) [3:11 PM]

hoglahoo: hello [3:11 PM]

jnicol: hi hog [3:11 PM]

machinelves: well, it's always a party at eterna [3:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: Color party [3:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: ;) [3:12 PM]

machinelves: hehe yeah it is pretty nice almost got a rainbow going [3:12 PM]

jandersonlee: oops stumbled into dev chat again - what's the high order bits today? [3:12 PM]

Eli Fisker: hi JL :) [3:12 PM]

machinelves: @jnicol i noticed we could use a filter for certain words in chat [3:12 PM]

machinelves: hehe hi janderson, welcome. bleep bloop blorp - NOVA buttons and no moar spammerz [3:12 PM]

jnicol: hi jandersonlee! [3:13 PM]

Eli Fisker: That sums it pretty neatly :) [3:13 PM]

machinelves: hehe :D [3:13 PM]

jandersonlee: yes the signal to noise in chat has fallen [3:13 PM]

jnicol: elves, what filter [3:13 PM]

machinelves: jnicol will email after chat [3:13 PM]

jnicol: hog, PM me more info on the spammer [3:14 PM]

jandersonlee: how are the lab results coming? [3:14 PM]

Eli Fisker: The signal to noise ratio for labs has risen [3:14 PM]

Eli Fisker: I mean fallen [3:15 PM]

machinelves: okay i am new to this, which is which? is fallen more noise? [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: We are working on to get it rising [3:15 PM]

jnicol: There was some issues with the results, I was just waiting for it to settle before I uploaded to the game interface [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: Just want to highlight the discussion we are having going on lab results [3:15 PM]

jandersonlee: hence the 131 fixed size? [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: and error rates [3:15 PM]

jnicol: I will put up R88 this weekend if nothing else changes [3:15 PM]

jnicol: correct JL [3:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/blog/5016072/ [3:16 PM]

jandersonlee: it is suspect that variable length is problematic? [3:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: We can use some more eyes this [3:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: Very long sequences are one of the likely suspects [3:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: There are a few more [3:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: things under suspicion [3:17 PM]

jandersonlee: hmm I turst your eyes Eli ;) [3:17 PM]

jandersonlee: *trust* [3:17 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hehe, thx [3:17 PM]

machinelves: Eli sees the RNAtrix [3:17 PM]

Eli Fisker: Here are the forum discussion [3:17 PM]

Eli Fisker: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/what-does-the-lab-data-say-about-the-various-causes-of-high-error-rates [3:17 PM]

jnicol: JL, it looks more like the process, but we are looking at several areas of suspicion [3:17 PM]

Eli Fisker: Not only is it about finding the problem lab data, but there is also some nice info on how to read error rates and recognize bad lab data [3:18 PM]

Eli Fisker: This discussion have been very helpful to learn from also [3:18 PM]

jnicol: and some recognition to those that are helping out! [3:19 PM]

machinelves: I was curious, is this a general issue across all labs? or one type specifically? [3:19 PM]

jandersonlee: yes, big thanks  [3:19 PM]

Eli Fisker: Np [3:20 PM]

jnicol: across the last several labs elves [3:20 PM]

machinelves: thanks! so a sudden increase in error rates? [3:20 PM]

jnicol: but most noticable in the last one [3:20 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yup [3:21 PM]

jandersonlee: what changed? [3:21 PM]

Eli Fisker: Meechl has posted several graphs in the post clearly demonstrating the change [3:21 PM]

machinelves: awesome, thanks Meechl! [3:21 PM]

jnicol: You have to ask Eli, Omei and Meechl, I havent been much involved in the technical side [3:21 PM]

jandersonlee: OK will check later as time allows [3:22 PM]

machinelves: really good to notice early as possible [3:22 PM]

Eli Fisker: Here is one of her graphs:  [3:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://prntscr.com/4jnlqp [3:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: Signal to noise average has to be high [3:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: and it is going lower across the later rounds [3:23 PM]

machinelves: interesting that it's not a sudden drop [3:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: When signal is weak, it can't be recognized from noise [3:24 PM]

jandersonlee: ouch S/N > 1 is not good! [3:24 PM]

Eli Fisker: So it is good to have a difference [3:24 PM]

jandersonlee: i mean SN < 1 rather [3:24 PM]

machinelves: already interview das lab for processes that may have changed? i saw rhiju commented in thread, so i assume they know in general [3:24 PM]

jnicol: hmm, nice graph, looks worse than I thought over several labs [3:24 PM]

machinelves: with the date of drop off round 77 & 87, could check process logs [3:25 PM]

Eli Fisker: The signal to noise ratio that jandersonlee just mention, means there is more noise than signal [3:25 PM]

machinelves: i know they use different reagents sometimes, and just were changing things about the length of nts. unfortunately i haven't done labs in a few rounds, so i'm out of touch [3:26 PM]

jandersonlee: i.e. hard to find meaningful results [3:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: Omei and Ann are discussing the lab protocol and lab notes [3:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: at bottom of this forum post [3:26 PM]

machinelves: also, could be a correlative issue - do we have data from last summer to check if it is a case of submissions degrading in quality on the user side? due to sunshine and playing outside rather than eterna? low chance of possibility but an option [3:27 PM]

machinelves: awesome, thanks! [3:27 PM]

jandersonlee: or more new players post NOVA? [3:27 PM]

Eli Fisker: We are having chat with the developers [3:28 PM]

machinelves: could be on the new players [3:28 PM]

Eli Fisker: Elf, and JL, good to see you are making thoughts on what could have happened. Remember to post in the forum [3:28 PM]

jnicol: we would like better :) [3:29 PM]

machinelves: Eli, thanks! sorry i haven't had ability to wrap my head around it yet, i'll take a look and share anything i can think of [3:29 PM]

Eli Fisker: Elf, np at all [3:29 PM]

Eli Fisker: Just a reminder [3:29 PM]

machinelves: yeah! it helps to know this is a specific drop off, not a general question  [3:30 PM]

jandersonlee: Is there a lab timeline anywhere (when labs occured)? [3:30 PM]

machinelves: yeah JL that would be huge help [3:30 PM]

machinelves: i mean, yes it would help, no i don't know where [3:31 PM]

Eli Fisker: I am not aware of us having the data anywhere. I wonder if it is in the RMDB [3:31 PM]

machinelves: or trace from lab archive, if there's dates attached to rounds [3:31 PM]

jnicol: yes, Eli, it is listed the Stanford DB [3:31 PM]

jandersonlee: The Archive lists lab dates, but not round numbers [3:31 PM]

jandersonlee: good to have a matching map perhaps [3:31 PM]

jnicol: I had an excel list, but seem to have misplaced it [3:32 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, that would be really great to have on our side [3:32 PM]

jnicol: of the labs and dates [3:32 PM]

jandersonlee: Google doc would be nice [3:32 PM]

Eli Fisker: It should get up in the WIKI table on Lab rounds [3:32 PM]

jnicol: Did Omei make that list? [3:32 PM]

machinelves: i see either a slow even downslope ( blue ), or two cliffs ( red )http://prntscr.com/4lmy0u [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: Its a joint project of Meechl, Omei and I [3:33 PM]

jandersonlee: btw - thanks folks [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: I made the table start and they have made all the spreadsheets [3:33 PM]

jnicol: very nice! thanks Eli (and omei, meechl) [3:33 PM]

machinelves: thanks to all of you, for the initiative & research time [3:34 PM]

Eli Fisker: Machine, these round might be reruns of the same round [3:34 PM]

Eli Fisker: Some rounds had reruns [3:34 PM]

machinelves: ahhh interesting [3:34 PM]

machinelves: please define round [3:34 PM]

machinelves: vs batch [3:34 PM]

Eli Fisker: Round = batch [3:35 PM]

Eli Fisker: all the labs that are run together [3:35 PM]

jnicol: Each close of lab [3:35 PM]

machinelves: okay thanks, so 1000 together? [3:35 PM]

Eli Fisker: sometimes even more designs [3:35 PM]

jnicol: usually 1000 sequences are synthesized per round, yes [3:35 PM]

machinelves: thanks. kk so all lab projects combined for one round / batch [3:35 PM]

machinelves: sometimes rerun due to xyz / error / etc... [3:36 PM]

machinelves: i do see the slight improvements possibly? http://prntscr.com/4lmzdo [3:37 PM]

Eli Fisker: Here is the lab table in the WIKI that I was mentioning before [3:37 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/Lab#Overview_of_Lab_Rounds [3:37 PM]

machinelves: i see john got IRC? new colour? [3:37 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://prntscr.com/4lmzqi [3:38 PM]

Eli Fisker: I think these are reruns as they are close together on the same number in rounds [3:38 PM]

machinelves: Eli thanks, big help. now i see R88 is round 88? [3:38 PM]

Eli Fisker: Elf, yup [3:39 PM]

machinelves: okay thanks for the graph highlight, i see cluster of a couple within one round is rerun [3:39 PM]

jnicol: If you don't mind, I will put the date under the Lab round number [3:39 PM]

Eli Fisker: I would love that [3:40 PM]

Eli Fisker: It will be a huge help [3:40 PM]

Eli Fisker: I think also for detecting future problems [3:40 PM]

jnicol: OK, I'm going to leave in a minute, thanks everyone for the chat! [3:43 PM]

machinelves: thanks John! [3:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: Bye John [3:44 PM]

machinelves: will post transcript & send other info [3:44 PM]

machinelves: many thanks for your hard work! :) [3:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: Big thx for getting our WIKI back. [3:44 PM]

machinelves: yes round of applause! w00t! :D :D :D [3:45 PM]