2014.08.20 Dev Chat

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On 3D & NOVA Button 

jnicol: Hi everyone [3:07 PM]

machinelves: hello! :D [3:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: HI John :) [3:07 PM]

jnicol: sorry I'm a little late, got caught in traffic [3:07 PM]

machinelves: glad you got here safe :) [3:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: Glad to see you [3:07 PM]

jnicol: Hi Eli, elves :) [3:07 PM]

machinelves: how goes the great dev adventure?! [3:07 PM]

jnicol: First off, I want to make sure everyone knows about the 3D lab that was put up for just this week [3:08 PM]

machinelves: thanks! missed that [3:08 PM]

jnicol: Joe and Vineet really wanted to get these sequences quickly :) [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: So are we supposed to solve them as usual? [3:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: 2D style? [3:09 PM]

jnicol: corect [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: Oh. :) [3:09 PM]

machinelves: do you solve through the 3D interface? or 2D [3:09 PM]

jnicol: 2D lab interface [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: We are still not having instructions on two of Brourds labs and the script on a third is down [3:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: So I'm just forseeing that lab work might be a bit crowded [3:10 PM]

jnicol: Do you know if Brourd made any comments about those labs? [3:10 PM]

machinelves: is the 3D lab due on 25th as well? [3:10 PM]

jnicol: yes [3:10 PM]

machinelves: kk thanks [3:10 PM]

Eli Fisker: There are 5 of them [3:11 PM]

jnicol: Your labs are good Eli? [3:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, I don't know [3:11 PM]

starryjess: It seems that Nando's script for Brourd's labs is broken [3:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: Jandersons version seems broken as well [3:12 PM]

jnicol: R87 just got uploaded to the Stanford database [3:12 PM]

starryjess: or, it doesn't work for me all of a sudden anyway [3:12 PM]

Eli Fisker: Oh [3:12 PM]

starryjess: I only have til Friday to do labs, so if it's not fixed ASAP I'm out of luck [3:12 PM]

Eli Fisker: I think this script actually is the same for all of Brourds labs [3:12 PM]

Eli Fisker: So folks are not able to submit [3:12 PM]

jnicol: Guess I need to drop Brourd a line to see what he plans to do [3:12 PM]

Eli Fisker: thx [3:14 PM]

Eli Fisker: There are very few slots for the 3D labs [3:14 PM]

jnicol: There are alot of designs, so I guess the problem is evaluating them to see which ones Brourd should pick? [3:14 PM]

Eli Fisker: only 3 pr design [3:14 PM]

jnicol: Yes Joe is creating these special outside the normal pipiline [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: ok [3:15 PM]

jnicol: and it is a lot of work for him, so he only allowed a few slots [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: And I see they have a lot of locked bases [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: Ok. makes sense then [3:15 PM]

Eli Fisker: Just checking [3:15 PM]

jnicol: yes, only the helixes are allowed to be changed [3:15 PM]

jnicol: the other motifs need to be fixed [3:16 PM]

jnicol: so that they have the correct orientation [3:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: Interesting [3:16 PM]

jnicol: hi starry [3:16 PM]

jnicol: R88 order has just been received at the lab, so it will be worked on this week [3:17 PM]

starryjess: hi jnicol [3:17 PM]

jnicol: the DNA order came in, that is [3:18 PM]

hoglahoo: *waves* [3:19 PM]

machinelves: good to see you starry! and hogla! [3:19 PM]

jnicol: Hi Lee! [3:19 PM]

starryjess: hi elf [3:19 PM]

machinelves: hogla, any way to get a linkbot entry for wiki help page pretty please with a wiki on top? [3:19 PM]

machinelves: :D [3:19 PM]

hoglahoo: sure just send me a pm with the link and command you want [3:19 PM]

machinelves: awesome! [3:20 PM]

LFP6: Oops, changed screens. :) [3:20 PM]

machinelves: thank you :) [3:20 PM]

LFP6: I'm here now! [3:20 PM]

machinelves: hi LFP6 welcome back [3:20 PM]

stlnegril9: @jnicol, jyeselm expressed interest w/ more "cool" 3D solves (w/ a def'n).. w/ the 15 slots for 8/25 deadline already in the pipeline... [3:21 PM]

stlnegril9: any idea on when the next 'round' would be done... assuming we submit enough interesting 3D solutions [3:21 PM]

jnicol: yes he did, but I havent heard anything further on that [3:21 PM]

JR: which puzzle does he want solutions for [3:21 PM]

hoglahoo: If the script we need in order to submit proper lab designs is broken, then I guess I'm out of luck too [3:22 PM]

stlnegril9: @JR, IIRC, both. probably more for FMN (AFAIK only Brourd submitted) but there may be a scoring issue in that puzzle [3:23 PM]

jnicol: He wants solutions for all puzzles, but since there are not many solves for the FMN puzzle, he was asking for those [3:23 PM]

JR: it is diffecult to find the correct direction to come in at [3:23 PM]

stlnegril9: seemed interested in high H/motif solves  [3:23 PM]

JR: i have several at 15 [3:23 PM]

starryjess: I don't know, is is broken or is it just me? [3:24 PM]

jnicol: the submit for the 3D starry? [3:25 PM]

machinelves: i saw they were asking whether submit was broken because of few designs received, in the blog comments [3:25 PM]

stlnegril9: @JR, that seems common. take a look at Br's solution. not exactly intuitive. "serendipitous" was the term I believe [3:25 PM]

JR: but to come in at another direction destroys half the puzzle - frustrating [3:25 PM]

machinelves: so if you aren't getting design submitted, it may be a bug [3:25 PM]

JR: whare is his solution [3:25 PM]

starryjess: no, Nando's script for Brourd's labs [3:25 PM]

JR: no bug [3:25 PM]

machinelves: ohhh thanks! [3:26 PM]

jnicol: I think jandersonlee came up with a version of nando's script also [3:26 PM]

LFP6: Before I head to dinner (lol), any news on issue tracking? [3:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: Starry, it is not just you [3:26 PM]

stlnegril9: @JR, they moved at least one of his a fe days ago..  use vineet's sol'n browser... orr [3:26 PM]

stlnegril9: or use this:http://vineet.eternadev.org/web/script/3378332/ [3:26 PM]

JR: ok- thanks [3:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: I have been trying the last few days, and errors come back. I did exactly as earlier when it has worked [3:27 PM]

jnicol: I should finish issue tracking tracking this week for testing on jnicol.eternadev.org [3:27 PM]

LFP6: Cool, thanks [3:27 PM]

machinelves: yay! that's great news :D [3:27 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, very cool! [3:27 PM]

LFP6: Saw what you have now, but will come back [3:27 PM]

stlnegril9: ahh.. NVM @JR, another broken script... [3:27 PM]

LFP6: Bbl, will look at log later [3:27 PM]

machinelves: bye LFP! [3:28 PM]

Eli Fisker: bye LFP [3:28 PM]

jnicol: L9, what is broken with the script? [3:28 PM]

stlnegril9: the one I jsut posted for JR [3:28 PM]

jnicol: Is it a code issue or connection issue [3:28 PM]

stlnegril9: worked earlier today... guessing Vineet moved the fn to list all solutions in the DIR [3:29 PM]

stlnegril9: my script.. most def. a code issue :) [3:29 PM]

Eli Fisker: For my part I get this message back on the broken lab script:  [3:29 PM]

jnicol: :) [3:29 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://prntscr.com/4etdqq [3:30 PM]

Eli Fisker: And its the same with jandersons [3:30 PM]

stlnegril9: actually, i posted the wrong script for JR... just used to mine breaking [3:30 PM]

starryjess: yep [3:30 PM]

Eli Fisker: The other scripts I have used recently works fine [3:30 PM]

stlnegril9: @JR, try this instead http://vineet.eternadev.org/web/script/3378333/ [3:31 PM]

JR:  ok [3:31 PM]

jnicol: Eli, that is nando's script for the lab, correct? [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yes [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: But both his and JL's are out of function [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: gets same error message [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: And they both have worked before [3:33 PM]

Eli Fisker: So we can't submit for these labs [3:34 PM]

jnicol: I saw your swicth script, congrats! [3:34 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx, John :) [3:34 PM]

Eli Fisker: Glowing with pride [3:35 PM]

machinelves: hehe congrats! [3:35 PM]

Eli Fisker: Sending the congrats back to you for teaching me well [3:35 PM]

Eli Fisker: thx, Elf [3:35 PM]

machinelves: :)  [3:36 PM]

machinelves: and i second the thanks to John for classes well taught [3:36 PM]

machinelves: @jnicol can we possibly autolink new players to the NOVA tutorials? would this be possible before september school rush? [3:36 PM]

machinelves: followed in priority by chat window Help button linking to wiki Help page [3:36 PM]

machinelves: so new players can be sure to not miss NOVA, it seems to be the biggest help right now for getting people started [3:37 PM]

jnicol: There is a Nova link on the registration page [3:37 PM]

Eli Fisker: Most miss it [3:37 PM]

Eli Fisker: I catch so many new players who hasn't seen it [3:37 PM]

jnicol: you need to logout to see it :) [3:37 PM]

machinelves: would it help to funnel them directly into NOVA? [3:37 PM]

machinelves: since NOVA links back to eterna [3:38 PM]

Eli Fisker: The play button glows green and friendly and that is all they see [3:38 PM]

machinelves: what does play button link to, tutorials? [3:38 PM]

machinelves: eterna tutorials [3:38 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yes, I think so [3:38 PM]

Eli Fisker: if its their first time [3:39 PM]

Eli Fisker: they land directly in the tutorials [3:39 PM]

jnicol: on the home page, where it says 'Looking for something to do?' [3:39 PM]

jnicol: that might be a good spot to put another nova link [3:39 PM]

Eli Fisker: That would help a bit [3:40 PM]

Eli Fisker: But not enough [3:40 PM]

jnicol: oh, are you saying to put it at the top of the tutorials page? [3:40 PM]

Eli Fisker: That too will be good [3:40 PM]

machinelves: that would be a help [3:40 PM]

Eli Fisker: But most new players I see, do the old tutorials but not the new [3:40 PM]

machinelves: or possibly puzzle menu drop down [3:40 PM]

hoglahoo: Why do we even still have the 6 eterna tutorials - is there some interface explanation there that nova doesnt cover? [3:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: I think it is a flaw to suggest the old tutorials first [3:41 PM]

machinelves: yes  [3:41 PM]

machinelves: yes it seems redundant now [3:41 PM]

machinelves: and NOVA is superior UX [3:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: I simply wish nova link swapped in where old tutorial lin is now [3:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: *link [3:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: as a default, unless they got a nova badge [3:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: Its similar for the old tutorials. As soon as they get the badge, they don't get suggested tutorials [3:42 PM]

machinelves: maybe link to NOVA from these 2 http://prntscr.com/4etis7 [3:42 PM]

machinelves: both looking for something tutorials, & menu -> puzzles -> tutorials [3:42 PM]

machinelves: straight to nova, bypass old tuts entirely [3:42 PM]

jnicol: In the drop down menu under puzzles? when they click on tutorials go to nova, unless they have a nova badge, otherwise go to the our tutorials [3:42 PM]

machinelves: yes [3:43 PM]

machinelves: and interesting idea on conditional [3:43 PM]

Eli Fisker: John, if they have to seek them out in the menu, many don't find them [3:43 PM]

machinelves: not sure. good idea. but would it be confusing - what if they want to do NOVA again? [3:43 PM]

Eli Fisker: Though I wish them there as well [3:43 PM]

machinelves: yes menu alone insufficient but still a help [3:43 PM]

Eli Fisker: Will be good having both sets of tutorials showing there [3:43 PM]

machinelves: one click NOVA [3:43 PM]

jnicol: I like that better Eli [3:44 PM]

machinelves: maybe feature NOVA in looking for something to do, put menu link to tutorial page with both? [3:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx John [3:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: I wish for that when they click play for the first time here: http://prntscr.com/4etk18 [3:45 PM]

Eli Fisker: that they land directly in the tutorials [3:45 PM]

machinelves: oh i see that looking for something to do, that tutorial space is for lab tutorials. i wish then to replace follow players with NOVA link [3:46 PM]

machinelves: and put that one first in row [3:46 PM]

Eli Fisker: Or at least get suggested as soon as they enter eterna to do the nova tutorials, if they don't have the badge [3:46 PM]

machinelves: Eli, like that idea [3:46 PM]

machinelves: i see, that is indeed a big green button! [3:46 PM]

Eli Fisker: Mist simply miss the blue one [3:47 PM]

machinelves: yes, best UX would be if NOVA is first experience [3:46 PM]

Eli Fisker: or they don't know what nova is [3:47 PM]

Eli Fisker: or how it is related to Eterna [3:47 PM]

machinelves: when they start with landing in eterna there is just too much [3:47 PM]

machinelves: NOVA focuses and is pretty and easy [3:47 PM]

Eli Fisker: I have heard several ask if it was tutorials for another game [3:47 PM]

Eli Fisker: and we usually have to suggest them do the tutorials several times before they realize they haven't done the real tutorials yet [3:48 PM]

machinelves: i see, i just looked at the screenshot and missed the blue nova button even though you just mentioned it [3:48 PM]

Eli Fisker: And we loose the many players who gets stuck on the old tutorials.  [3:48 PM]

Eli Fisker: or some of them get a bad start [3:49 PM]

LFP6: Keep in mind the NOVA UI is different from the one in the main game [3:49 PM]

jnicol: So maybe better wording and placement on the Registration page [3:49 PM]

Eli Fisker: That would help [3:49 PM]

Eli Fisker: Put it on top at least [3:49 PM]

jnicol: with a suggestion to start there first [3:49 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yes [3:50 PM]

machinelves: yes, big green button on top = Play NOVA Intro!, blue button underneath - go straight to EteRNA [3:50 PM]

LFP6: Yep [3:50 PM]

machinelves: rephrase as necessary [3:50 PM]

LFP6: Who starts with the small button that doesn't basically say start here? :P [3:50 PM]

machinelves: like how sites default page give registration bigger button for new users than login for old users [3:50 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, exactly [3:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [3:51 PM]

machinelves: we assume old users will look harder. new users need easiest entry to NOVA [3:51 PM]

machinelves: hehe [3:51 PM]

machinelves: push the big candy button!  [3:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, on the different controls between eterna and nova, it was meaning that with time they should be integrated here [3:52 PM]

LFP6: Just pointing it out in case it baces a difference (bit of a jar and whatnot) [3:52 PM]

LFP6: Personally, depending on the effort, I would just go straight to replacing the old tutorials with the NOVA ones. [3:52 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yep, and you are right [3:53 PM]

LFP6: Though, that would probably take a lot longer than changing buttons. :P [3:53 PM]

Brourd: When will the R87 data be uploaded into Eterna? [3:53 PM]

jnicol: when I get a chance to upload it, I'll have it up by Saturday [3:54 PM]

LFP6: By the way, I have no idea what's going on when I go into the 3D interface, but it seems many of you don't. Where can I go to be able to learn this magical info? :P [3:55 PM]

jnicol: Brourd, there is some questions about the scripts for your labs [3:55 PM]

Brourd: connect point A to point B. Pretty simple LFP6! [3:56 PM]

machinelves: lol, LFP good question! the 3D interface is in beta, so we're testing at the same time as playing. [3:56 PM]

jnicol: LFP6, http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/news/4911883/ [3:56 PM]

machinelves: some players have been collecting lists of useful bendy motifs [3:56 PM]

machinelves: so learning as we go! [3:57 PM]

machinelves: and hi brourd! [3:57 PM]

machinelves: here's a forum thread to discuss 3D issues & ideas [3:58 PM]

machinelves: https://getsatisfaction.com/eternagame/topics/your_gaming_ideas_for_our_3d_rna_game#reply_14655642 [3:58 PM]

machinelves: and here's git for status on issues: [3:59 PM]

machinelves: https://github.com/vineetsk1/EteRNA-3D-Public/issues [3:59 PM]

Eli Fisker: Neat, Elf [3:59 PM]

machinelves: and just play and have fun and share insights. some clever players have solved the puzzles, but i only got the tutorial myself before i ended up focusing on UX [4:00 PM]

machinelves: thanks for making the forum thread, Eli! [4:00 PM]

Eli Fisker: np [4:00 PM]

machinelves: the blog comments are getting unwieldy [4:00 PM]

machinelves: very cool, that so many have helped report - i think that's the most comments i've ever seen! :D [4:01 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yes, it is :) [4:01 PM]

Eli Fisker: I'm almost certain [4:01 PM]

LFP6: Yeah, that's all nice and pretty, but I still don't necessarily understand it (making it that much harder to knoe how it applies)\ [4:01 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, I don't understand it either.  [4:02 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 it is a different approach than 2D. we hope to get both views integrated [4:02 PM]

Eli Fisker: But we are trying to learn [4:02 PM]

machinelves: but yes, 3D is about the shape more than the bases [4:02 PM]

Eli Fisker: I have written a short post on the different kind of RNA structures [4:03 PM]

machinelves: hence the connecting point A & point B [4:03 PM]

LFP6: What I'm saying is I don't understand the concepts of what we're talking about, bar the 3D/interface [4:03 PM]

machinelves: each "motif" is a small chunk of RNA [4:03 PM]

Eli Fisker: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qqV_AYzvgLJNMWdBMsb3JhYue5N0yvR1p0C_6OQE8no/edit#heading=h.ujyy6vbbi39 [4:03 PM]

Brourd: hmmm, low signal to noise. Dr. Das is not going to be happy about this one, lol. [4:04 PM]

machinelves: like lego blocks to put together and make a whole strand [4:03 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, link for you [4:04 PM]

machinelves: and so how each motif is shaped, has an effect on which direction in space it takes the molecue [4:04 PM]

machinelves: *molecule [4:04 PM]

hoglahoo: @Brourd, don't be a negative nelly! [4:04 PM]

Eli Fisker: And I soon have a section from Omei to add in there too [4:04 PM]

LFP6: Thanks Eli, will take a look [4:04 PM]

Eli Fisker: np [4:04 PM]

Brourd: the data is pretty bad, hoglahoo. A bit disappointed. [4:05 PM]

hoglahoo: I thought you were talking about devchat [4:05 PM]

machinelves: Eli, thanks for that doc, that helps explain the transition between the different ways of viewing the same strand of RNA [4:05 PM]

Eli Fisker: Elf, np [4:05 PM]

LFP6: Has anyone happened to fill the lookup on motif yet? [4:05 PM]

LFP6: #def mitif [4:05 PM]

DictionaryBot: The term was not found, add it to the wiki : http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/EteRNA_Dictionary [4:05 PM]

LFP6: #def motif [4:05 PM]

DictionaryBot: The term was not found, add it to the wiki : http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/EteRNA_Dictionary [4:05 PM]

machinelves: good idea LFP6! [4:05 PM]

LFP6: Oops [4:05 PM]

machinelves: new concept for sure [4:05 PM]

LFP6: Anyhow, what is the def? [4:05 PM]

hoglahoo: http://rna.bgsu.edu/rna3dhub/motifs [4:06 PM]

hoglahoo: RNA 3D motifs are recurrent structural modules that are essential for many biological functions and RNA folding. Usually drawn as unstructured hairpin and internal loops, these motifs are organized by non-canonical basepairs, supplemented by characteristic stacking and base-backbone interactions. [4:06 PM]

Eli Fisker: Motif - scientist word for pattern/element. [4:06 PM]

Brourd: Wow hoglahoo, you sure are knowledgable. [4:07 PM]

machinelves: have to ask someone other than me to be sure. but my understanding is a motif is a modular abbreviated segment of RNA, for assembly into greater RNA structures [4:07 PM]

machinelves: yes good point Eli, each motif is meant to be a unique pattern [4:07 PM]

hoglahoo: Brourd: former librarians have a vast amount of knowledge at their disposal [4:07 PM]

machinelves: like a paintbox / palette for making RNA [4:07 PM]

LFP6: Hmmm... Neat [4:07 PM]

LFP6: Will have to ask more questions in chat, I suppose! [4:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: So it is a small specific chunk of RNA [4:08 PM]

machinelves: good idea! quite a few players have made good progress in playing with it, i would ask around for tips [4:08 PM]

LFP6: At any rate, it's as I've mentioned before, there's a very steep learning curve when it gets to stuff haing to do with 'real' RNA (that is, not 2D Eterna usage), as there isn't one place where you're told to look [4:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: Basically like a 3D puzzle brick in a 3D puzzle and unique [4:09 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 have you seen the new help page? [4:09 PM]

LFP6: .help [4:09 PM]

LinkBot: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/LinkBot [4:09 PM]

LFP6: Oh, wrong help. :P [4:09 PM]

LFP6: Yeah, hold on [4:09 PM]

machinelves: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/HELP [4:09 PM]

machinelves: i hear you, and you're right. would help to have one portal for new players to get basic concepts. hopefully this is a start [4:09 PM]

LFP6: As dar as I see, those are all about playing 2D EteRNA, and talk about the actual RNA next to none [4:10 PM]

LFP6: *far [4:10 PM]

machinelves: yes, 3D is beta [4:10 PM]

machinelves: so what you see is not the final design [4:10 PM]

machinelves: so there's no current instructions because we're in the process of writing them [4:10 PM]

Eli Fisker: A section in the WIKI is started on 3D [4:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/Eterna_3D_RNA_Motif_Assembler [4:11 PM]

machinelves: aha! awesome [4:11 PM]

machinelves: :D [4:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: Everybody feel free to help add what you know [4:11 PM]

machinelves: perfect thank you Eli [4:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: On ressources and on solving [4:11 PM]

LFP6: I'm not even talking about 3D, which I think is what is being missed. Just stuff having to do with concepts about real RNA in general, not having to do with the game [4:11 PM]

Eli Fisker: np [4:11 PM]

machinelves: I am behind on 3D myself, but there's a few who have made good progress [4:11 PM]

jnicol: I'm going to take off in a few minutes, thanks everyone for the chat! [4:12 PM]

machinelves: thank you jnicol! [4:12 PM]

LFP6: Oh, that gives me a good idea! Could we have a section on the Wiki main page something alog the lines of new/up and coming, for stuff like this? Plus what about a page that needs work of the *insert time span* [4:12 PM]

Eli Fisker: Bye John  [4:13 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, good idea [4:13 PM]

Eli Fisker: We don't have a whats new section [4:13 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, you were asking about education on RNA. I have compiled a bit here:  [4:14 PM]

machinelves: yes that would be great, currently i look to feed under chat of blog / news, but things get buried easily [4:14 PM]

Eli Fisker: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pOyAbiiwqN_7bW8hhG2afwBKriv1tbVqsvFq0BD2Hp0/edit#heading=h.5i0dk3cxrd4a [4:14 PM]

LFP6: Great Eli. Is there more room to expand on what the RNA actually does? I just skimmed the contents, so not sure what's there [4:15 PM]

hoglahoo: brourd [4:15 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 you mean like how the NOVA tutorials mention molecular machinery behavior? like actual things RNA is involved with? [4:15 PM]

LFP6: That and the physical goings on of the RNA, yes! [4:16 PM]

machinelves: good questions! [4:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, you might like this then:  [4:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i2zbTrp9K4Rk3u-kTvGgdIVudvJAiscCYtoJgE4twvM/edit [4:16 PM]

Eli Fisker: Its about some of the crazy stuff RNA does [4:17 PM]

LFP6: Btw, also a thought for the Wiktionary. For pages we know need to be added (terms that have yet to have a page), could we perhaps make a page with something like 'We know this is needed, but no one has defined me yet. Please find someone to fill me in!', then put it on a 'needed in dictionary' page? [4:17 PM]

LFP6: Thanks again Eli [4:17 PM]

Eli Fisker: np [4:18 PM]

LFP6: We need to add a guide section for guides on 'the physical side' of RNA [4:18 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, you know about this page? [4:18 PM]

Eli Fisker: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/Special:WantedPages [4:18 PM]

LFP6: Yes, but that is only for pages not created [4:18 PM]

LFP6: That are linked to [4:18 PM]

LFP6: I'm thinking in terms of DictionaryBot's responses [4:18 PM]

Eli Fisker: Ah, I see what you mean [4:18 PM]

LFP6: And just because I know something's needed, doesn't mean it's linked to (though I suppose that could happen on my profile or something) [4:19 PM]

machinelves: to keep track of existing unfinished pages? or a call for help on certain pages? [4:19 PM]

Eli Fisker: I'm not sure how to add such a thing. Nando would be the best talking to [4:19 PM]

Eli Fisker: The latter, I think [4:19 PM]

LFP6: And those that need to happen [4:19 PM]

LFP6: All of the above [4:19 PM]

Eli Fisker: Ok [4:19 PM]

Eli Fisker: Fastest way to make wanted pages happen is simply create a page with the term [4:20 PM]

Eli Fisker: I think [4:20 PM]

machinelves: yes that is the easiest way [4:20 PM]

machinelves: then the page exists, same amount of typing [4:20 PM]

machinelves: and when you see a red link, you know it needs help! [4:20 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thats how I usually start a page, when I think a word needs to be defined [4:21 PM]

Eli Fisker: Or you can search for the word [4:21 PM]

Eli Fisker: in the wiki [4:21 PM]

LFP6: Ah [4:21 PM]

Eli Fisker: and then prepare this for a link [4:21 PM]

LFP6: Good point [4:21 PM]

Eli Fisker: You can mark it as one that needs to be defined, with double brackets [4:21 PM]

machinelves: like this? [ [newPage] ] [4:22 PM]

LFP6: Just wish we had more filling out of the Wiki going on. I would help with that, but I honestly don't have the knowledge (my problem I mentioned before) [4:22 PM]

Eli Fisker: Like Machine says [4:22 PM]

LFP6: Yeah [4:22 PM]

Eli Fisker: So simply find the word - it will often be there already [4:22 PM]

LFP6: If I get around to it, I [4:22 PM]

LFP6: I'll try to mock up a contribution page-ish thing [4:22 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, there is an intro on how to edit the WIKI [4:22 PM]

machinelves: LFP how to wiki:  [4:22 PM]

machinelves: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3hotzntLN9DIGTl4-cM5BN-32nKiDvhz70LonCmWyA/edit#%C2%A0 [4:22 PM]

machinelves: hehe [4:22 PM]

Eli Fisker: :) [4:23 PM]

LFP6: No, I mean knowledge of the subject matter. :P [4:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: ah [4:23 PM]

LFP6: But also helpful! :D [4:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: Not always necessary. Find a video or text that explains the concept [4:23 PM]

LFP6: Btw, we should have a manual of syle page like everyone else... [4:23 PM]

Eli Fisker: or a few and then explain and add good teaching material [4:23 PM]

LFP6: Mmm [4:23 PM]

machinelves: i think nando did something like that [4:23 PM]

machinelves: style wise [4:24 PM]

Eli Fisker: You mean so everyone makes the same WIKI style? [4:24 PM]

Eli Fisker: I have a bit on it, but more will be helpful [4:24 PM]

LFP6: I mean the thing that comes default-ish with Wikia [4:24 PM]

machinelves: like what size headers etc... [4:24 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, if you know about this, please make a doc [4:24 PM]

Eli Fisker: For my part I use the Free energy page as a golden standard [4:25 PM]

Eli Fisker: Everything else I try style like this [4:25 PM]

Eli Fisker: As this one looks good [4:25 PM]

LFP6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style [4:25 PM]

LFP6: But not as in-depth [4:25 PM]

machinelves: consistency is a good idea - feel free to update where you see inconsistent styling [4:26 PM]

LFP6: I mean, really, just a page or two. :P [4:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx, LFP [4:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: Wow, thats long.  [4:26 PM]

machinelves: hehe good idea on abbreviating! [4:26 PM]

machinelves: yes [4:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: I very much agree with you. A page or two will be helpful [4:26 PM]

LFP6: I'm saying 'use good capitalization/grammer puctualization, don't make crazy edits', etc. [4:26 PM]

LFP6: That shtuff [4:26 PM]

machinelves: yes. wiki is made by what hands can help [4:26 PM]

Eli Fisker: LFP, could you help brew down the main points, just like that? [4:27 PM]

machinelves: so we all make mistakes, feel free to correct when you see errors [4:27 PM]

Eli Fisker: Exactly [4:27 PM]

Eli Fisker: Because I can't guarantee for my grammar :) [4:27 PM]

Benjamaster1: Hi guys [4:28 PM]

Eli Fisker: hi Benjamaster [4:29 PM]

machinelves: hello! [4:29 PM]

LFP6: Heya [4:29 PM]

LFP6: General section here, at least: http://legomessageboards.wikia.com/wiki/LEGO_Message_Boards_Wiki:Manual_of_Style [4:30 PM]

machinelves: @hogla PM with linkbot request  [4:30 PM]

machinelves: at your leisure [4:30 PM]

LFP6: Then if we want to do pages that follow some template (like user pages are there), we can add that in, plus whatever else is felt to be important [4:30 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx for the general manual [4:32 PM]

LFP6: I'm just spitting here, so take what you will [4:32 PM]

machinelves: good idea to implement standards [4:32 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx [4:32 PM]

LFP6: I'll add these to the to-do section of my Wiki profile [4:33 PM]

Benjamaster1: I've been wondering for a while, is there something like a basic profanity filter on group names/descriptions and usernames, ect? [4:33 PM]

LFP6: In a bit [4:33 PM]

Benjamaster1: etc* [4:33 PM]

LFP6: No, that's one of those things that has been in discussion, but I'm not sure a filter has been raised in discussion, correct me if I'm wrong [4:34 PM]

machinelves: http://prntscr.com/4eu1la [4:34 PM]

machinelves: there you go [4:34 PM]

machinelves: ready to paint in the details [4:34 PM]

machinelves: http://eternawiki.org/wiki/index.php5/Main_Page [4:34 PM]

machinelves: benja good question, i'm not sure. anything inappropriate can be reported [4:36 PM]

machinelves: .conduct [4:36 PM]

LinkBot: http://eterna.cmu.edu/content/code-conduct [4:36 PM]

Benjamaster1: found a grammar error already, sentence starts with and [4:36 PM]

Benjamaster1: ik about that. maybe a report button to make it easier so you don't have to wait for the devchat? [4:36 PM]

machinelves: that's a stylistic choice imho. And there's an email link in the CoC [4:37 PM]

machinelves: for reporting, without waiting for devchat [4:37 PM]

LFP6: Could you also add a blurb about the prospective 'needs edit of the __' and adding dictionary terms (perhaps a seperate page for terms, unless red links covers that) [4:37 PM]

LFP6: Report has been a mentioned thought [4:37 PM]

LFP6: Machine... Elfi? [4:38 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 are you planning to maintain this page? [4:38 PM]

LFP6: Which? [4:39 PM]

LFP6: If you mean the needs edit thing, I'd need to talk to Nando on how that should be chosen... [4:40 PM]

LFP6: Manual of style and such would be more of a community concensus when something needs to happen [4:40 PM]

Eli Fisker: Will be good discussing it with Nando [4:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: He has taken care of the WIKI from he got it revived [4:41 PM]

Eli Fisker: But your inputs are apprechiated [4:42 PM]

LFP6: He probably has a better idea of what needs to be done [4:42 PM]

Eli Fisker: So thx for bringing this up [4:42 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yup [4:42 PM]

LFP6: And how it should be approached/implimented [4:42 PM]

Eli Fisker: Yes [4:42 PM]

LFP6: I think ---> I spit ---? Something happens [4:42 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 re: help wanted, like this? http://prntscr.com/4eu4fz [4:42 PM]

Eli Fisker: haha [4:43 PM]

LFP6: The ? was not intentional, but it works [4:42 PM]

machinelves: step 1: ask for feature  [4:43 PM]

Eli Fisker: Good one, LFP [4:43 PM]

machinelves: step 2: ????? [4:43 PM]

LFP6: lol [4:43 PM]

machinelves: step 3: tada! [4:43 PM]

machinelves: easy [4:43 PM]

LFP6: Actually, I was saying under the wiki edit heading [4:43 PM]

machinelves: lol [4:43 PM]

Eli Fisker: elf :) [4:43 PM]

machinelves: what is that [4:43 PM]

LFP6: HOWEVER, an I need help! would be a neat idea [4:43 PM]

machinelves: ah that paragraph is getting long. feel free to reformat! [4:44 PM]

machinelves: a wiki inherently functions as community consensus tool [4:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: Getting late here. I should get to bed. Been fun playing [4:44 PM]

machinelves: so feel free to make pages and edits, and it's helpful to give a heads up when making major changes [4:44 PM]

machinelves: night Eli! good to see you [4:44 PM]

Eli Fisker: Thx, Elf and same [4:44 PM]

LFP6: Yeah... Perhaps just push to a page for editing, with it's own bullets? :) [4:44 PM]

LFP6: Night Eli! [4:45 PM]

machinelves: :D [4:45 PM]

machinelves: LFP6 i'm not sure what you mean [4:45 PM]

Eli Fisker: THx, LFP [4:45 PM]

LFP6: 'Want to help out? Check out the Getting started on the Wiki page to see how you can help, and to learn more about our wiki!' [4:46 PM]

LFP6: Or something better phrased. :] [4:46 PM]

machinelves: i believe that's what this is https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3hotzntLN9DIGTl4-cM5BN-32nKiDvhz70LonCmWyA/edit#%C2%A0 [4:46 PM]

machinelves: Wiki Edits - Players are invited to please help expand our overview of the game and related topics. If you want to contribute and are unsure of pages to create, look for red links or review the latest activity. And we're creating a Manual of Style for consistent formatting! [4:47 PM]

hoglahoo: yes, it's on the wiki front page already [4:47 PM]

machinelves: you're looking for a wiki portal to editing the wiki that is not in google docs? [4:47 PM]

hoglahoo: there's already a wikipedia style manual, may as well just link to that [4:48 PM]

machinelves: hogla great idea thank you [4:48 PM]

LFP6: You were saying the paragraph was getting long [4:48 PM]

machinelves: i had actually thought this was already in the wiki menu somewhere [4:48 PM]

hoglahoo: it probably is [4:48 PM]

LFP6: So my thought was just splitting it into it's own page [4:48 PM]

machinelves: yes [4:48 PM]

LFP6: Let me do a quick test of that... [4:48 PM]

machinelves: sure, replace with [ [ How to Edit Wiki ] ] or something [4:49 PM]

machinelves: and brief invite sentence [4:49 PM]

machinelves: plug that paragraph into the page [4:49 PM]

hoglahoo: It becomes a question how to organize things so that what newcomers need to see isn't buried too far that they can't find it right off, and end up creating duplicate entries of whatever it is they think isn't there yet [4:49 PM]

LFP6: That's what I was saying. :) [4:49 PM]

machinelves: yes hogla good point [4:49 PM]

LFP6: True [4:49 PM]

machinelves: front page is meant to be 1-click away from key resources [4:49 PM]

machinelves: 2 clicks has a cliff drop off of participation [4:50 PM]

hoglahoo: kinda like labs :) [4:50 PM]

LFP6: Btw, new page button might want to be front page, just sayn' [4:50 PM]

machinelves: but agreed, to put content into its own page when too deep [4:50 PM]

hoglahoo: @LFP6, the new page 'button' is just the browser address bar [4:50 PM]

LFP6: lol [4:50 PM]

LFP6: Right [4:50 PM]

machinelves: okay friends and gentlefolders, i'm adding this to dev chat transcript page - any last thoughts? [4:51 PM]

machinelves: i mean not last, you can keep discussing [4:51 PM]

machinelves: but i have to go back to work :D [4:52 PM]

LFP6: Nah, not until I get that page draft for ya [4:51 PM]

machinelves: and post the transcript [4:52 PM]

machinelves: kk. thanks for helping! wiki gets made better with everyone's effort [4:52 PM]

LFP6: Yep! [4:52 PM]