2013.07.24 Dev Chat

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On Supporting Players & Researchers

...

Dear all,

This is a reminder that the biweekly dev chat is scheduled on 6PM EST, 7/24,
and also a special announce that Adrien Treuille (PI of Computer Science side of Eterna) and Rhiju Das (PI of Biochemistry side of Eterna) will join us to discuss cloud labs - especially focusing on how we should improve the labs to support players & researchers who want to perform serious researches in Eterna.
See you all there!

Eterna team

http://eterna.cmu.edu/web/news/3182084/

Adrien Treuille: Hi everyone!! :) [3:03 PM]
jeehyung: hello all : ] Welcome to the Eterna dev chat [3:03 PM]
Eli Fisker: hi Adrien :) [3:03 PM]
Zanna: hi Adrien [3:04 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Hiya Adrien [3:04 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: Adrien!! [3:04 PM]
earth8845: we need a deletion system and better labs [3:04 PM]
Jieux: Hello Adrien [3:04 PM]
Jieux: seems we need a deletion system and better labs ;) [3:04 PM]
rhiju: hi everybody [3:04 PM]
Eli Fisker: hi Rhiju :) [3:04 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hey Rhiju [3:04 PM]
Jieux: hey rhiju [3:04 PM]
rhiju: thanks for coming [3:05 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: =D [3:04 PM]
earth8845: yello rhiju [3:05 PM]
Zanna: hi rhiju [3:05 PM]
earth8845: :D [3:05 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Hiya Rhiju [3:05 PM]
Meechl: Hello everyone [3:06 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: wouldn't miss it for the world [3:05 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hey Meechl [3:05 PM]
jeehyung: @earth, noted about the account delete system [3:04 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Hiya MeechI [3:05 PM]
Eli Fisker: hi Meechl [3:05 PM]
Jieux: hey Meechi [3:05 PM]
earth8845: what will happen? [3:05 PM]
earth8845: i was not here last meeting [3:05 PM]
earth8845: D: [3:05 PM]
rhiju: i'd like to suggest that we avoid getting deep into feature requests [3:05 PM]
rhiju: although we'll record those! [3:05 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: =D [3:05 PM]
earth8845: ok [3:06 PM]
rhiju: let's chat about eterna's mission [3:06 PM]
mat747: hi rhiju - suggest that Eterna need a player representative for the lab, a Dev person that players can ask question too and get quick replies. [3:06 PM]
rhiju: if you had to sum up eterna's mission in one statement, what would it be? [obviously i have my own idea] [3:06 PM]
mat747: like foldit has [3:06 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: .... oh man [3:07 PM]
earth8845: mat that is a god idea [3:07 PM]
hoglahoo: To boldly fold where no man has folded before [3:07 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: advancing science through puzzles [3:07 PM]
earth8845: :D [3:07 PM]
Eli Fisker: lol, Hogla [3:07 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: lol hog, nice star trek ref [3:07 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: to try to get people addicted to have free workers :D [3:07 PM]
Eli Fisker: haha [3:07 PM]
earth8845: haha [3:07 PM]
Zanna: lol [3:07 PM]
Jieux: No one hogla.... :) please get TNG :) [3:07 PM]
rhiju: ok, but those are all quite similar to foldit [3:07 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: haha [3:08 PM]
rhiju: why do you come to eterna? [3:08 PM]
earth8845: fork on the left [3:08 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: to get better at solving puzzles [3:08 PM]
Eli Fisker: lab results [3:08 PM]
Nando: labs [3:08 PM]
Eli Fisker: finding patterns [3:08 PM]
Jieux: I would say to forward science through gaming and community. [3:08 PM]
Nando: hi everyone [3:08 PM]
Zanna: to contribute to science, I hope [3:08 PM]
Meechl: eterna is more fun than foldit... and labs I suppose [3:10 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: labs [3:08 PM]
Eli Fisker: hi Nando [3:08 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hey Nando [3:08 PM]
rhiju: @eli, why not find patterns in the stock market? [3:08 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and learning stuff [3:08 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Hiya Nando [3:08 PM]
Eli Fisker: Rhiju, good question. I prefer somewhere where it benefits people [3:09 PM]
rhiju: ok, cool [3:09 PM]
Eli Fisker: And stockmarket doesn't have much colors ;) [3:09 PM]
Jieux: it's got green :) [3:09 PM]
rhiju: how important is it to you that eterna have a game-like interface? [3:09 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and yellow! [3:09 PM]
Jieux: Very important rhiju. [3:09 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: It's important, I think that it makes it more fun [3:09 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @nando: hi. thanks for coming [3:09 PM]
Eli Fisker: I like our colors [3:09 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: :D [3:10 PM]
Zanna: there's a lot of time between labs, gotta have something to do while we wait :P [3:10 PM]
rhiju: @zanna, what if there were labs every day? [3:10 PM]
earth8845: we might need a better seitch setup too [3:10 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: i think that would be nice, rhiju [3:10 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: It would be great [3:11 PM]
earth8845: i would love that [3:11 PM]
Zanna: labs every day? is that gonna be possible?????? I wouldn't mind that [3:11 PM]
Jieux: has drawbacks. [3:11 PM]
earth8845: and after they are done put them in challenges [3:11 PM]
Meechl: I would be overwhelmed by labs every day, but maybe that's just me? [3:12 PM]
JR: science can be dry sometimes [3:11 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: maybe every week? [3:11 PM]
rhiju: ok, first of all this is super helpful [3:11 PM]
earth8845: maybe every half week? [3:11 PM]
JR: puzzles let me experiment [3:11 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: it can be, JR, and I feel like this makes it more fun [3:11 PM]
rhiju: for me, i think we shoul dmake 'labs' as fast as possible. [3:11 PM]
JR: then i verify in lab [3:12 PM]
rhiju: ideally on the timescale of seconds, not 2 weeks [3:11 PM]
earth8845: yeah [3:12 PM]
Zanna: wow [3:12 PM]
Meechl: That would be great [3:13 PM]
hoglahoo: immediate feedback is why I prefer the puzzles [3:12 PM]
Jieux: isn't everything heading that way rhiju? [3:12 PM]
rhiju: but i get the sense that this love of expts isn't the main driving factor for most of the top players [3:12 PM]
Meechl: I agree with hogla [3:13 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: yep [3:12 PM]
Eli Fisker: expts? [3:12 PM]
jeehyung: experiments [3:11 PM]
rhiju: OK, meechl, hog, et al thanks [3:12 PM]
JR: i actually think there is something i can figure out [3:12 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and i feel like with the player puzzles, you can actually experiment with things [3:13 PM]
Eli Fisker: ah, thx, Jee [3:12 PM]
rhiju: ok, let's try to collectively compose a mission statement [3:13 PM]
earth8845: we should get the old labs out and put them in player puzzles as "eterna puzzles" [3:13 PM]
Meechl: @rhiju, can you share your mission statement? [3:15 PM]
rhiju: when we started, it was "to create a library of RNA designs to decode principles for RNA engineering & folding" [3:13 PM]
rhiju: but i think that has changed [3:13 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: to what? [3:13 PM]
rhiju: for me, to something like "to establish universal and rapid access to biomolecule experimental science" [3:14 PM]
Eli Fisker: We have tried to make an RNA algorithm [3:14 PM]
Eli Fisker: and we are making puzzle solving bots [3:14 PM]
rhiju: but that doesn't include 'games' [3:14 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: haha it doesn't [3:14 PM]
rhiju: and it doesn't quite get across other motivating factors that you all have outlined above! [3:14 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: =D [3:15 PM]
Zanna: well, I consider that game good learning experience for the labs [3:15 PM]
Eli Fisker: Science - game on [3:15 PM]
rhiju: @eli, i agree those are things that we did -- in some sense we have solved the original mission [3:15 PM]
JR: agree with zanna [3:15 PM]
Eli Fisker: But we can get better [3:15 PM]
Nando: did we solve it for switches? [3:15 PM]
rhiju: another 'thread' that we've explored is that we've successfully made the entire scientific process, including expeirments, into a fun game [3:15 PM]
Eli Fisker: switches is still game [3:15 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: mmhm [3:16 PM]
rhiju: @nando, no we haven't developed a killer algorithm for switches [3:16 PM]
rhiju: let's return to swtiches -- i have it on my list. [3:16 PM]
Eli Fisker: hehe, killer algorithm [3:16 PM]
JR: need more switch labs maybe [3:16 PM]
Adrien Treuille: well [3:16 PM]
Adrien Treuille: I think this mission statement question is interestingm [3:16 PM]
Adrien Treuille: interesitng [3:16 PM]
rhiju: ooh here it comes [3:16 PM]
Adrien Treuille: interesting [3:16 PM]
rhiju: adrien, are you supplying a mission statement? [3:17 PM]
Adrien Treuille: (no brilliant ideas... I can't even spell "interesting!") [3:17 PM]
Adrien Treuille: yes... [3:17 PM]
Adrien Treuille: I am [3:17 PM]
Zanna: lol [3:17 PM]
Jieux: EteRNA - A laboratory game to discover how we can store genetic information the same way nature does. [3:17 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: :D [3:17 PM]
Adrien Treuille: so one direction would be to train Eterna players to do graduate level research [3:17 PM]
Adrien Treuille: not just play games but do all the other aspects of scienece [3:17 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: Adrien, thats a good idea [3:17 PM]
Jieux: and where you can earn your phd :) [3:17 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: such as? [3:17 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: =D [3:17 PM]
Adrien Treuille: coming up with new ideas [3:17 PM]
rhiju: players: do you want to get a phd? [3:17 PM]
Meechl: I do! [3:19 PM]
Adrien Treuille: convincing others that those ideas are interesting / important [3:18 PM]
rhiju: meaning write papers and then join the scientific community? [3:18 PM]
Adrien Treuille: maybe even raising money to study those ideas (that's a big part of science!) [3:18 PM]
tsuname: hi all [3:18 PM]
JR: not really - just want to do science [3:18 PM]
Zanna: I don't need a phd, but I don't mind being trained to help in some way [3:18 PM]
Adrien Treuille: rating other people's ideas (this takes a lot of time too!) [3:18 PM]
Eli Fisker: I'm mostly interested in getting education, but also write miniature papers [3:18 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Hiya tsuname [3:18 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: that would be fun [3:18 PM]
Adrien Treuille: and finally writing up your own ideas ang getting famous (one of the fun parts... besides uncovering universal truths) [3:18 PM]
Eli Fisker: So don't care about title, as long as I can do science [3:18 PM]
JR: a paper would be good [3:19 PM]
Meechl: I don't especially enjoy writing, but I think I'd write science papers [3:20 PM]
rhiju: mission: "to enable the creation of experimentally validated scientific knowledge by anyone" [3:19 PM]
JR: justifies means [3:19 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @JR: but the key quesiton is do you want to write the paper, or do you want us to and be listed as a "gamer" [3:19 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: rhiju, that sounds good [3:19 PM]
Eli Fisker: Rhiju, that sounds great. [3:19 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhiju.. that is a good one [3:19 PM]
Meechl: I would rather write the paper myself, or as a team with other eterna players [3:21 PM]
JR: i am trying to figugew ourt what a good paper would be [3:20 PM]
rhiju: @meechl, cool. [3:20 PM]
Eli Fisker: It would also be great if there was specific devs/scientists, we would know we could go to, for advice, when working on something and needing pro input [3:20 PM]
hoglahoo: Maybe you could put up a couple of flash interactive polls for a week or so and get a good slice of community opinion [3:20 PM]
Jieux: I think to write a paper would require a certain degree of familiarity with quite a wide range of academic skills. [3:20 PM]
rhiju: @JR, that's a reasonable reply -- we don't have reading/writing papers as part of eterna so its hard to answer [3:20 PM]
JR: you may need to point it which direction [3:20 PM]
rhiju: here's an idea that i was discussing yesterday [3:20 PM]
rhiju: with tsuname (who btw sits in my lab) [3:20 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: what were you discussing? [3:20 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: oh wow. [3:21 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhiju+@jr: actually, I view the forums, wiki, etc. as a very inofrmal form of "paper writing".. one option would be to formalize this [3:21 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and publish it in a journal? [3:21 PM]
Jieux: I submitted a proposal for the switch lab months ago... there was a call out for submissions and a format and such. I did my best to follow the format. [3:21 PM]
rhiju: @adrien, the problem right now is that the forum posts are not packaged formally and with enough sense of the existing knowledge to qualify for publication [3:21 PM]
JR: problem: have no idea what level a "paper" has to be [3:22 PM]
rhiju: ok, so how about this: [3:22 PM]
rhiju: we have a weekly 'lab meeting' [3:22 PM]
rhiju: as a google hangout or similar [3:22 PM]
JR: I think most of what i find is already known [3:22 PM]
rhiju: i will attend all of them [3:22 PM]
rhiju: one player presents his/her work [3:22 PM]
Eli Fisker: Sounds very cool, Rhiju [3:22 PM]
mat747: adrien/rhiju - about developing a killer algorithm - Will you allocate a dev person to help with that ? [3:22 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: oh my god really? [3:22 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: that would be so cool!! [3:22 PM]
rhiju: i help the players (perhaps 3-4) write up their ideas into papers [3:22 PM]
rhiju: formally, i would be their 'advisor' [3:23 PM]
rhiju: this is the ph.d. system, and it works [3:23 PM]
rhiju: but i think the only reason it works is because of student-to-expert interaction on a regular basis [3:23 PM]
rhiju: the vision would then be to have the top players perhaps set up meetings of their own after a yr or 2 [3:23 PM]
rhiju: after they get the feel of writing or contributing to papers [3:24 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hmm [3:24 PM]
rhiju: we don't have this now, and i'm not sure it can be' gamified' [3:24 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: that sounds like a good idea [3:24 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: define top players [3:24 PM]
rhiju: sorry, i didn't mean top players [3:24 PM]
rhiju: i meant players who had projects running in the lab... [3:25 PM]
Meechl: Maybe people could graduate to EteRNA scholar or something after a point to participate? [3:26 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: players in general? [3:25 PM]
rhiju: and the meetings would be totally voluntary ... [3:25 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhij -> so that's one option [3:25 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hmm, Meechl, that's a good idea [3:25 PM]
kcabral28: I think that is a great idea [3:25 PM]
Adrien Treuille: it's more or less how graduate education is done today [3:25 PM]
rhiju: @meechl, yes we'd have a badge/certificaiton system [3:25 PM]
JR: top input player, not top ranking player [3:25 PM]
Meechl: cool [3:26 PM]
Adrien Treuille: i.e. it's not scalable [3:25 PM]
rhiju: @meechl, but the players would be co-authors on scientific paper(s), which is really the only certificaiton that counts in science [3:25 PM]
tsuname: I think that more than the certificate, it's more important the work you get published [3:26 PM]
rhiju: @adrien, its scalable if players 'graduate' and teach other players [3:26 PM]
Adrien Treuille: the only part we'd be scaling is the "admissions" process.. which is to say all Eterna players could in principle become a top player [3:26 PM]
tsuname: that's what gives you cred [3:26 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: in principle? [3:26 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhiju..yes that's a good point [3:26 PM]
Meechl: do you imagine the papers being about just one lab at a time, or a theme from multiple labs, or both? [3:27 PM]
Eli Fisker: We want what we find to get published, so it can be used if it is good [3:26 PM]
rhiju: @adrien, what eterna offers, that is unique, is absence of barriers to experimental validation [3:26 PM]
Jieux: yes indeed. [3:26 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhiju: yes that is very powerful [3:26 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhiju: interestingly that aspect is independent of the crowdsourcing [3:27 PM]
rhiju: well, maybe we're not crowdsourcing [3:27 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @rhiju: eterna could simply be a way to timestamp and validate experimental results [3:27 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: rhiju, maybe what we could do [3:27 PM]
rhiju: i'll be back in 3 mins, i need to find an adapter... [3:27 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: k [3:27 PM]
Adrien Treuille: btw.. I'm not minimizing the idea [3:28 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: (this is going to sound stupid -__-) [3:28 PM]
Adrien Treuille: scaling grad level admissions is HUGE [3:28 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: grad level? [3:28 PM]
Zanna: writing papers sounds way over my head [3:28 PM]
flippah: what do you mean by scaling grad level admissions? [3:28 PM]
flippah: slighlty confused .. [3:28 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: sae [3:28 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: *same [3:28 PM]
Jieux: I would think you would need an undergrad degree to actually qualify for a doctorate no? [3:28 PM]
tsuname: the thing is that, with a bit of formal training, writing papers is really not that bad [3:28 PM]
jeehyung: @flippah getting rid of it in Eterna there is no admission [3:28 PM]
tsuname: takes time, that's all [3:28 PM]
Eli Fisker: Zanna, you have explained puzzles in video. Imagine you explains lab results in a forum post [3:28 PM]
Eli Fisker: Then you are on the way [3:28 PM]
Adrien Treuille: yes... basically what rhiju is saying is that, in some sense, we treat "top players" the same way we would graduate students at a top science program [3:29 PM]
rhiju: @Zanna, what if you could contribute to a paper as a 'co-author' but not be responsible for the writing... [3:29 PM]
Adrien Treuille: i.e. tons of one-on-one time to develop research ideas and supervision when conducting experiments and writing up results [3:29 PM]
tsuname: @adrien, I thin it's more like starting a movement where every player can have his/her own lab [3:29 PM]
flippah: but isnt that bifurcation of players? I want to write a paper, but i might no be the top player.. [3:29 PM]
flippah: i think that's slightly limiting. [3:29 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: flippah, i agree [3:29 PM]
rhiju: everyboyd, i'm sorry, i didn't mean 'top player' [3:29 PM]
Eli Fisker: Flippah, ignore rank. You don't have to have a high rank to make a discovery [3:30 PM]
JR: yes - ignore rank [3:30 PM]
mat747: you will have to define top player for sure [3:30 PM]
Nando: I'm not a top player, mostly by choice, but that doesn't stop me from having ideas which I hope to test and validate [3:30 PM]
flippah: what i think could work is, the more published a player becomes, the more 'mentor' sort of role he can take [3:30 PM]
flippah: does that make sense? [3:30 PM]
rhiju: what if there *is* an 'admissions' process [3:30 PM]
Adrien Treuille: I think that top player would have to be defined diferently than by score [3:30 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: Eli, isn't rank just how many puzzles you've solved? [3:30 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: what would that be? [3:30 PM]
Eli Fisker: Tomoe, exactly [3:31 PM]
flippah: exactly [3:31 PM]
rhiju: you submit a personal statement and reseach statement [3:31 PM]
JR: top contribution player is better [3:31 PM]
rhiju: which could include links to your designs on eterna [3:31 PM]
rhiju: and to your interests [3:31 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and you would decide from there? [3:31 PM]
rhiju: yes [3:31 PM]
flippah: again, im slightly worried about scalability here, but that s secondary ofc [3:31 PM]
Adrien Treuille: ...but maybe let's take a step back and not worry about who gets to be a "top player" or whatever.. that's actually a minor point [3:31 PM]
rhiju: @flippah, yes i agree [3:31 PM]
rhiju: but i can't give one-on-one time to 60 players [3:32 PM]
Adrien Treuille: .. another whole way of defining Eterna would be that we invite top research labs to participate in the game [3:32 PM]
flippah: exactly [3:32 PM]
rhiju: but i can give it to 3-4 players [3:32 PM]
Eli Fisker: Yes, we want to make science that helps [3:32 PM]
Adrien Treuille: (this, btw, is Rhiju's brilliant idea) [3:32 PM]
rhiju: and after 1 year, they could each give it to 3-4 players after that [3:32 PM]
rhiju: in fact some of the players who learn the paper-writing processes are probably going to be better teachers than me, [3:32 PM]
flippah: why would the labs do it? [3:32 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and move down the line? [3:32 PM]
rhiju: and they can teach more than 3-4 players... [3:32 PM]
Adrien Treuille: in this case, we would emphasize less the idea of players writing up their results and instead emphasize getting players involved in cutting edge research at a plurality of top institutions in the world [3:32 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: and branch out [3:33 PM]
rhiju: @flippah, i didn't undertand your question? [3:33 PM]
yan_yan11: hi i am yan yan [3:33 PM]
jeehyung: @flippah becuase we provide them synthesis slots (experimental resourcs) and players who are willing to work on the problem (manpower) [3:32 PM]
flippah: i meant, what would be the incentive for the labs to join in [3:33 PM]
Jieux: I think that this enviornment would be helpful to players like me who are not approaching the labs systematically, but rather instincutally from an intrinsic idea... it would help me put some experimental constraints on my idea testing.... [3:33 PM]
flippah: oh i see, that makes sense [3:33 PM]
Jieux: with a goal of publishing. [3:33 PM]
rhiju: i'm motivated to do this because i think that current player projects are fascinating [3:33 PM]
flippah: hmm, i really like this idea. its very unique. [3:33 PM]
rhiju: and i want to see that knowledge formalized [3:33 PM]
rhiju: and i can't write the papers on my own. its too much [3:34 PM]
rhiju: and i want credit to go to the players who have started the projects. [3:34 PM]
Meechl: I like the idea of mentoring and having that passed down [3:35 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: that would be cool [3:34 PM]
flippah: ^ seconded [3:34 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: thirded^ [3:34 PM]
rhiju: would you be unhappy with there being an 'admissions' process? [3:34 PM]
Eli Fisker: I like that [3:34 PM]
Eli Fisker: :) [3:34 PM]
JR: you can tell us which is woth a shot and which isn't [3:34 PM]
rhiju: maybe if the admissiosn occurred every 6 months or something... [3:35 PM]
flippah: admissions process to get published? [3:35 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: not really [3:35 PM]
Jieux: depends on the process :) [3:35 PM]
flippah: ermm .. [3:35 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: same [3:35 PM]
RedSpah: hi Folks & Devs [3:35 PM]
JR: you can tell use what is wothwhile and what isn't [3:35 PM]
Eli Fisker: hi Red [3:35 PM]
flippah: Hey Red [3:35 PM]
rhiju: @JR, sure, and after the first paper(s), the players should be able to make their own decisions about what to write up, and who they could train next [3:35 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hi Red [3:35 PM]
Meechl: I think there should be an admission process, too help choose people that will be able to run the projects and pass down their experience [3:37 PM]
Adrien Treuille: so @rhiju et al: I think there's a danger in the player projects idea [3:35 PM]
Adrien Treuille: which we have to take seriously [3:35 PM]
Meechl: I don't know how rigourous the admission process should be though [3:37 PM]
Adrien Treuille: first of all, even if we don't have time to write up all the brilliant player ideas [3:36 PM]
flippah: this might be slightly off track, but would rhiju help the players with the actual semantics of writing a paper? [3:36 PM]
rhiju: @flippah, yes exactly [3:36 PM]
Adrien Treuille: we shouldn't underestimate the "startup cost" of training even one player to write a paper [3:36 PM]
rhiju: @adrien, i totaly agree. [3:36 PM]
flippah: ^ interesting [3:36 PM]
Adrien Treuille: secondly, writing papers sounds glamorous.. but it's actually really hard [3:36 PM]
flippah: exactly [3:36 PM]
rhiju: that's why there needs to be limited attendance to at least the hangout/meeting that i attend [3:36 PM]
Adrien Treuille: now I'm not saying that our players aren't up to it.. they're brilliant [3:36 PM]
Nando: it is [3:36 PM]
rhiju: and a huge commitment [3:36 PM]
Adrien Treuille: but I am saying that it's not glamorous [3:36 PM]
rhiju: by the player/participant [3:37 PM]
Adrien Treuille: and it's not fun like playing eterna [3:37 PM]
rhiju: its like going to a monastery to learn kung fu [3:37 PM]
hoglahoo: So is this a narrowing of the crowd? [3:37 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: rhiju, this may not be possible [3:37 PM]
Nando: :D [3:37 PM]
Adrien Treuille: it's hard, hard, hard.. and if you want to do it really well... it's even harder! :) [3:37 PM]
flippah: but the actual semantics is too .. boring [3:37 PM]
flippah: lol [3:37 PM]
rhiju: @flippah, yup it can be. [3:37 PM]
Zanna: I have a key point to bring up about all this... first we need a better way to search and compare the past labs, it is hard to anylize labs as things are [3:37 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: but maybe for the younger (teen) players, in a few years we could do internships or something? [3:37 PM]
RedSpah: true Zanna [3:37 PM]
rhiju: but writing a paper can be fun if you have close colleagues who challenge you on every sentence... [3:37 PM]
Adrien Treuille: @zanna: that's a great point [3:37 PM]
flippah: but even if you narrow it down, wouldnt that be very time consuming for the supervisor aka rhiju [3:38 PM]
Adrien Treuille: but @zanna: let's save feature requests for the end [3:38 PM]
flippah: unless we narrow it down very steeply [3:38 PM]
rhiju: yes, it would be time-consuming. [3:38 PM]
rhiju: that's why i haven't started this already. [3:38 PM]
Meechl: I've written a paper about a topic more boring than Eterna, so I have hope that it could be marginally better if it's about a topic I care aobut [3:40 PM]
flippah: lol [3:38 PM]
Eli Fisker: :) [3:38 PM]
Jieux: @ developers, what kind of time investment do you think would be expected on our end. [3:38 PM]
Jieux: oh heh. [3:38 PM]
rhiju: perhaps we could call this a 'seminar' [3:39 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: yeah [3:39 PM]
Adrien Treuille: so another way of looking at this is.. instead of "what do real scientists do" we loook at "what is most fun + sciency about the game" and try to amplify that [3:39 PM]
rhiju: @adrien, i don't understand your point [3:39 PM]
flippah: neither do i [3:39 PM]
flippah: this is hardcore sciency stuff [3:39 PM]
Adrien Treuille: well [3:39 PM]
Adrien Treuille: what I mean is [3:39 PM]
rhiju: yea, what we're pitching (a writing seminar) is not gamey [3:39 PM]
flippah: precisely [3:39 PM]
Zanna: lol [3:39 PM]
rhiju: this is serious business adrien! [3:39 PM]
Adrien Treuille: I'm talking about including other labs [3:39 PM]
flippah: oh right [3:40 PM]
simba: Fun+sciency, lol [3:40 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: lol [3:40 PM]
flippah: on the other end [3:40 PM]
flippah: yeah maybe that could work [3:40 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: i don't like writing [3:40 PM]
kcabral28: A lot of players are already very committed to EteRNA, I'm sure some players would love to learn how to write papers and get their work published. [3:40 PM]
JR: other labs meaning what? [3:40 PM]
rhiju: @tomoeuzumaki you bring up something important [3:40 PM]
flippah: as in the one rhiju was talking about earlier JR [3:40 PM]
flippah: other labs to mentor more players [3:40 PM]
rhiju: perhaps our vision should be to have several teams writing papers [3:40 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: wait really? [3:40 PM]
Adrien Treuille: in other words.... Eterna players should outsource the boring parts (i.e. writing papers) someone else.. i.e. the professional scientists! :) [3:40 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: thank you [3:41 PM]
simba: @adrien. ouch! [3:41 PM]
rhiju: and each team could include at least one 'expert' scientists *or* someone taking the 'seminar' with me [3:41 PM]
RedSpah: can someone tell we what are we talking about since I just joined [3:41 PM]
flippah: question: who decides whats worth writing a paper on? the mentor or the player? [3:41 PM]
rhiju: @adrien, i suspect that some eterna players would actually thrive at wordsmithing and making paper arguments crystal clear [3:41 PM]
rhiju: @flippah, in the beginning the metnor will play a big role. [3:42 PM]
flippah: ^ i can see how that could fly [3:42 PM]
hoglahoo: RedSpah: I've been here the whole time but I share your question :) [3:42 PM]
Adrien Treuille: well.. let's turn that to the players [3:42 PM]
simba: @rhiju, do you think eterna players understand what goes into writing a paper? [3:42 PM]
flippah: same concern [3:42 PM]
Adrien Treuille: would any of you thrill at the idea of helping to write a paper.. even if the idea weren't yours? [3:42 PM]
rhiju: @simba, no, but we shouldn't expect that [3:42 PM]
simba: might be a good place to start [3:42 PM]
flippah: not yet at least [3:42 PM]
rhiju: that's the point of having the seminar... [3:43 PM]
Meechl: Since I don't really have a specific idea of my own right now, I would love to help someone else [3:44 PM]
rhiju: this is a great discussion, but i want to switch [3:43 PM]
flippah: i mean if the players think that they have what it takes then they wont need the seminars [3:43 PM]
rhiju: before getting into feature requests... [3:43 PM]
rhiju: something cool [3:43 PM]
rhiju: did you know that we're getting experts involved in eterna [3:43 PM]
Zanna: yay! [3:43 PM]
Eli Fisker: What kind of experts? [3:44 PM]
rhiju: several labs are now testing the experimental 'backend' of eterna for their RNA projects [3:44 PM]
rhiju: these include: [3:44 PM]
JR: they should - we can do their dirty work very well [3:44 PM]
flippah: lol [3:44 PM]
rhiju: folks at stanford who work on the flu (which has an RNA genome) [3:44 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: ah [3:44 PM]
rhiju: and nobel-prize-winning labs (i can't say who just yet) [3:44 PM]
Eli Fisker: interesting :) [3:44 PM]
flippah: thats actually impressive [3:44 PM]
flippah: ^_^ [3:44 PM]
rhiju: and folks who care deeply about RNA 3D structure, such as 'leontis' [3:44 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: aah [3:44 PM]
rhiju: and of course several people in my lab [3:44 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: =D [3:44 PM]
Eli Fisker: ah [3:44 PM]
rhiju: about 10-12 labs have gotten data in eterna [3:45 PM]
Eli Fisker: Sounds great [3:45 PM]
rhiju: we are in the midst of implementing a new workflow [3:45 PM]
Eli Fisker: So they are using our data? [3:45 PM]
Eli Fisker: Or making their own? [3:45 PM]
JR: maybe you should ask game player if they want to "step up" to next level? [3:45 PM]
flippah: Even i didn't know all those labs are getting involved, but that's great [3:45 PM]
rhiju: a workflow in which experts type in their question, and then... [3:45 PM]
jeehyung: @Eli they submit their own projects & sequences [3:45 PM]
rhiju: ... puzzles are set up on eterna to answer their question with player's help [3:46 PM]
Eli Fisker: thx, Jee [3:46 PM]
rhiju: it is very very cool [3:46 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: aah [3:46 PM]
tsuname: we're even using eterna designs to test hypothesis/benchmark methods [3:46 PM]
tsuname: =) [3:46 PM]
rhiju: and it is going to be so easy for the 'expert scientists' that they would be silly not to do it [3:46 PM]
tsuname: like tebowned [3:46 PM]
Eli Fisker: cool [3:46 PM]
tsuname: my personal favorite hehe [3:46 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: aah [3:46 PM]
Jieux: would there be a way to create a lab interface that would mimic the structure of paper-writing so that it becomes naturalized to think that way. [3:46 PM]
rhiju: and we are ensuring that player comments will also be ranked and the top ones fed back to experts [3:46 PM]
rhiju: @jieux, we thought about that... [3:46 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: experts being? [3:47 PM]
rhiju: for now, the actual project submission form is very close to how scientists write grants [3:47 PM]
flippah: the labs he mentioned i guess [3:47 PM]
rhiju: and jee is working on a way to formalize the experimental data & puzzles to look like a lab notebook [3:47 PM]
rhiju: but we don't have a templated or gamified way to write a paper [3:47 PM]
flippah: i think that's fair [3:47 PM]
rhiju: that's why i think an expert-to-player relationship is important for getting papers written [3:48 PM]
flippah: imo, it shouldn't need to be gamified [3:48 PM]
flippah: it's the 'pure science' corner of EteRNA [3:48 PM]
flippah: lol [3:48 PM]
Eli Fisker: agree, Rhiju [3:48 PM]
Eli Fisker: I wouldn't mind having a little outside help on my paper writing, my main interest is that my stuff gets used. I will like to do the core work, but have help on the finishing [3:48 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: ditto [3:48 PM]
rhiju: @tomoeuzumaki, "expert" means a traditional academic researcher [3:48 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: thanks [3:49 PM]
rhiju: (again, i probably shouldn't use the word 'expert') [3:49 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: and Rhiju, you can call me Tomoe [3:49 PM]
rhiju: OK ;) [3:49 PM]
rhiju: one more question -- about the seminar [3:49 PM]
rhiju: should admissions be from individuals or from teams? [3:49 PM]
flippah: indivduals imo [3:50 PM]
rhiju: ok [3:50 PM]
rhiju: on to feature requests... [3:50 PM]
flippah: that gives a chance for an individual to pair up with a stronger player [3:50 PM]
Jieux: @ rhiju... I'm thinking about something that might keep someone from me from writing "I like semicircles and want to see how they fold in nature" as my scientific hypothesis... [3:50 PM]
JR: both [3:50 PM]
flippah: hmm, that's interesting JR [3:50 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: rhiju, do you think it would be possible to have ambient music? [3:51 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: like in the background? [3:51 PM]
Jieux: to approach things using a more scientific method [3:51 PM]
Zanna: I already mentioned that we need a better way to compare/study synth'd labs [3:51 PM]
flippah: actually i like JR's idea better [3:51 PM]
JR: some work well in teams - some don't [3:51 PM]
rhiju: @JR, maybe both teams & individuals (in the first round) and then we can decide [3:51 PM]
JR: yes [3:51 PM]
flippah: right [3:51 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: besides SHAPE? [3:51 PM]
jeehyung: @Tomoe noted about the bg music. We don't have one, but we can look for one [3:50 PM]
rhiju: @zanna, i agree. what do you want? [3:51 PM]
Meechl: Got to go, thanks everyone! I like the idea of working with both teams and individuals, maybe they could have a team leader or something. Bye! [3:53 PM]
rhiju: @eli -- can you post your lab suggestions document? [3:52 PM]
flippah: see you meechl [3:52 PM]
rhiju: bye meechl? [3:52 PM]
Eli Fisker: yes, moment [3:52 PM]
Zanna: I guess I want to be able to compare several designs, side by side, for one [3:52 PM]
rhiju: i mean, bye meechl! [3:52 PM]
Jieux: take care meechi. [3:52 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: i second zannas idea [3:52 PM]
jeehyung: @Zanna across different labs? [3:52 PM]
Zanna: thanks Matt :P [3:53 PM]
rhiju: what if there are 10 designs [3:53 PM]
Zanna: well, different and same, both [3:53 PM]
rhiju: does anyonehaev a proposal for h iew? [3:53 PM]
Eli Fisker: comming: [3:53 PM]
Eli Fisker: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SxP8Kq1ZnxxWRtxhGps2YQNap7CGp4mCr9yZlfN9dDs/edit# [3:53 PM]
rhiju: *for how to view [3:53 PM]
flippah: wow [3:53 PM]
flippah: Eli's on top of it haha [3:53 PM]
Zanna: lol [3:54 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: he definetly is [3:54 PM]
Zanna: nice, Eli [3:54 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: lemme go get something to eat [3:54 PM]
Eli Fisker: thx, Zanna [3:54 PM]
rhiju: ok, what else? [3:54 PM]
rhiju: there was a comment above about 'deleting' -- what's that? [3:54 PM]
jeehyung: @rhiju deleting user account [3:54 PM]
rhiju: ah ok [3:54 PM]
Jieux: I would like to take a moment to give huge props to players like Eli who have dedicated their time to making the sea of knowledge about EteRNA accessable to the rest of us. [3:54 PM]
rhiju: (big round of applause) [3:55 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: yep [3:55 PM]
flippah: Yeah, really. Thanks Eli! [3:55 PM]
Zanna: Yay, eli! [3:55 PM]
hoglahoo: *raucus cheering* [3:55 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: yay [3:55 PM]
jeehyung: thanks always : ] [3:54 PM]
Renton_Innes: Greetings from New Zealand [3:55 PM]
Eli Fisker: thx all [3:55 PM]
flippah: Hey Renton! [3:55 PM]
earth8845: almost the end of dev chat [3:55 PM]
earth8845: D: [3:55 PM]
rhiju: hi renton! good to see you again [3:55 PM]
flippah: hello earth [3:55 PM]
Renton_Innes: yes, lovely to be back. :) [3:56 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: hey Renton! [3:56 PM]
Renton_Innes: Hi Flippah [3:56 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: wow, are all the devs here? [3:56 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Hiya Renton [3:56 PM]
rhiju: everyone, dev chat is about to end.... [3:56 PM]
Eli Fisker: hi Renton [3:56 PM]
flippah: @tomoe not all [3:56 PM]
RedSpah: entire Dev team there [3:56 PM]
RedSpah: at least most [3:56 PM]
flippah: yep [3:56 PM]
rhiju: i've got to run -- please post comments and concrete proposals in forums [3:56 PM]
earth8845: why this early [3:56 PM]
rhiju: we pay attention to them [3:56 PM]
earth8845: D: [3:56 PM]
Eli Fisker: Bye Rhiju [3:56 PM]
rhiju: for example, with eli's document [3:56 PM]
flippah: earth, this has been going on for a while! [3:56 PM]
rhiju: we're trying to implement features as fast as we can, but be patient [3:57 PM]
flippah: Thank you rhiju and adrien ! [3:57 PM]
Jieux: one little thing.... there used to be a link to user agreement, a legal doc, that I can't seem to find anymore.... I just wanted to peek at it one more time before sending jpegs to my labs to the nobel committee. [3:57 PM]
rhiju: thanks to everyone for the discussion of the seminar, the mission statement, and our motivations [3:57 PM]
Adrien Treuille: thanks rhiju.. this was a good discussion [3:57 PM]
Jieux: jk [3:57 PM]
jnicol: thanks rhiju, bye [3:57 PM]
Adrien Treuille: much food for thought! [3:57 PM]
rhiju: bye [3:57 PM]
Jieux: but there used to be a commons agreement. [3:57 PM]
Renton_Innes: You guys are wonderful. missed you for sure the other side. [3:57 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: Thanks Rhijuu seeya [3:57 PM]
jeehyung: Thanks Adrien and Rhiju [3:56 PM]
flippah: and Jee ofc [3:57 PM]
flippah: haha [3:57 PM]
flippah: :) [3:57 PM]
Eli Fisker: lol, Jieux [3:57 PM]
jeehyung: @Jieux - noted about agreement missing. [3:57 PM]
Jieux: take care Adrien, Rhiju. [3:58 PM]
Renton_Innes: I know im a bit late but how is everything going here? [3:58 PM]
Eli Fisker: Bye Adrien [3:58 PM]
Zanna: Is anything concrete being learned from the labs we submit? [3:58 PM]
jeehyung: Thanks flippah : ] [3:57 PM]
Adrien Treuille: bye eli [3:58 PM]
jnicol: bye adrien [3:58 PM]
Adrien Treuille: thanks jee!!!!! [3:58 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: bye guys!! [3:58 PM]
flippah: I'm off too [3:58 PM]
flippah: see you guys later [3:58 PM]
earth8845: everyone is leaving [3:58 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: -__- who created the bot [3:58 PM]
earth8845: D: [3:58 PM]
simba: byeee [3:58 PM]
TomoeUzumaki: bye flippah [3:58 PM]
earth8845: the fork on the left [3:59 PM]
jeehyung: @Zanna The general design rules have been learned from earlier labs. Right now, we are trying to figure out what we can do with Eterna (as Rhiju and Adrien pointed out, what's the next mission o fEterna?) [3:58 PM]
Nando: @Zanna: only as far as some player analyzes the results and don't keep his conclusions for himself [3:59 PM]
simba: eteRNA 4L! [3:59 PM]
Matt Indykiewicz: what bot Tomoe? :S [3:59 PM]
jeehyung: @Adrien Thanks for coming! [3:58 PM]
Eli Fisker: yay, Simba [3:59 PM]
earth8845: D: [4:00 PM]
earth8845: dev chat is dead [4:00 PM]
jeehyung: @All thanks for pariticipaiting in the chat today. It was a great discussion. The chat log will be posted in the news item. [3:59 PM]