2013.03.20 Dev Chat

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On App & Data Check


jeehyung: Hi all [6:11 PM]

donmcybertect: That's as cold as it gets though. [6:11 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hi jess [6:11 PM]

Creativ: pff, it's misus 25 here in winter :p [6:11 PM]

Brourd: Hi Jee [6:11 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: *jeehyung [6:11 PM]

Deedie: Its 4 celsius over here, way to cold for this time of year [6:11 PM]

jeehyung: I'm sorry I'm late- welcome to the Eterna dev meeting : ] [6:11 PM]

Brourd: no problem Jee [6:11 PM]

Deedie: Hi jee [6:11 PM]

donmcybertect: It was -51 in Edmonton last winter...that's cold!\ [6:11 PM]

Creativ: hello [6:11 PM]

Brourd: how are you doing today? [6:11 PM]

Deedie: Brr. cold [6:11 PM]

jeehyung: I'm good - how are you Brourd [6:12 PM]

Brourd: I'm good as well, thanks :) [6:12 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hi Brourd [6:12 PM]

Deedie: hi brourd [6:12 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: jee, when do the lab results come out? [6:12 PM]

Brourd: How is development for an interface to se the player project results coming along? [6:13 PM]

Brourd: hello deedie, tomoe [6:13 PM]

jeehyung: Hi Tomoe - the full version of the cloud lab results should be uploaded in 1- 2 days [6:13 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ok [6:13 PM]

jeehyung: Brourd, it's moving on, but not quite done yet. [6:13 PM]

Brourd: great! [6:13 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :D [6:13 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd we also have the new data for the previous switch puzzles to. We'll upload them soon as well [6:13 PM]

Brourd: Any major differences between the preliminary results and the full cloud beta results? [6:14 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: jee, when I play switch puzzles by players, there is [Switch 2.5] thing that comes up in the title. [6:14 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: What is that? [6:14 PM]

Brourd: thanks Jee, will be good to see those as well [6:14 PM]

Hyphema: jee are u speaking of the hand finger lab? [6:14 PM]

Hyphema: sorry, hi all [6:15 PM]

Deedie: Hi Hyph [6:15 PM]

Brourd: @ hyphema - there was a change in the scoring protocol, so these are just updates for the old switch labs [6:15 PM]

hoglahoo: Hy, phema [6:15 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hi Hyph [6:15 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: nice, hogla [6:15 PM]

Hyphema: hy hogwarts [6:15 PM]

hoglahoo: 0o. [6:15 PM]

jeehyung: @Tomoe we have several version of switch puzzle rules we have been testing. 2.5 is the latest version number : ] [6:16 PM]

Hyphema: @B thx [6:16 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ah. Thanks, jee [6:16 PM]

Brourd: Btw Jee, with the last update, it seems the meltplot was removed from the labs [6:17 PM]

starryjess: woooow, he's right [6:18 PM]

Brourd: and, I'm not sure if it was on purpose, but the links to access the rest of the site were removed from the heading in puzzlemaker - http://eterna.cmu.edu/game/puzzlemaker/ [6:18 PM]

hoglahoo: I'm glad those are gone [6:18 PM]

Deedie: There are two new buttons in the game options, but haven't figured it out what they do [6:18 PM]

hoglahoo: I hated clicking those accidentally and losing my design [6:18 PM]

Brourd: xD [6:19 PM]

hoglahoo: incidentally, is jee actually here? [6:19 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yes [6:19 PM]

Deedie: yes [6:19 PM]

hoglahoo: great [6:19 PM]

starryjess: wait, what's gone? [6:19 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd Yes we are aware of the meltplot problem the fix should be updated on Friday [6:19 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: there's nothing different [6:19 PM]

Brourd: sounds good Jee [6:20 PM]

jeehyung: ..and the puzzle maker menu thing also is a bug we are fixing. It should be updated with the melt plot as well [6:20 PM]

Brourd: nice [6:20 PM]

Deedie: oke, thanks [6:20 PM]

Brourd: and returning to my previous question [6:20 PM]

starryjess: oh duh, I see it now :P [6:20 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: what's gone? [6:20 PM]

starryjess: @hog, how did your cursor get way over there? :P [6:20 PM]

Brourd: were there any major differences between the preliminary and final results for the first cloud beta round Jee? [6:20 PM]

hoglahoo: starryjess: trackpad [6:21 PM]

Brourd: and what exactly are in the full results? :) [6:21 PM]

starryjess: you make all those complicated puzzles with a trackpad?! [6:22 PM]

starryjess: that's patience [6:22 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd no major differences - they just wanted to double check the results before we fully distribute the rewards [6:22 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: I use a trackpad, jess [6:22 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: I lost my mouse [6:22 PM]

starryjess: :( [6:22 PM]

Deedie: Whats a trackpad? [6:23 PM]

Hyphema: @Jee, do you think the string of A's constraint will remain at 3 and what does that mean for the locked string of A's in the cloud beta labs and the results? [6:23 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: the mousepad on laptops [6:23 PM]

Brourd: Has a decision been made to change the score multiplier Jee? [6:23 PM]

Deedie: O, we call that a touchpad [6:23 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ah [6:24 PM]

Brourd: @ hyphema - it just means you will never be able to submit a design that always fulfills every constraint :( [6:24 PM]

jeehyung: @Hyphema it will remain at 3. We can't do anything about the locked As so they will have to remain there. However, we'll remove the animation indicating the locked part violates the constraint [6:24 PM]

Brourd: oh, that sounds good [6:24 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Thank you for answering that question, Brourd [6:24 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd yes it'll be 2, instead of 10 so it'll be like having done 4 lab puzzles at once. [6:25 PM]

Brourd: okay, sounds good [6:25 PM]

hoglahoo: gasp [6:25 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: gasp! [6:25 PM]

hoglahoo: but I want more fake coins! [6:26 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: haha [6:26 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: then if you want more, solve more puzzles, hogla [6:26 PM]

Brourd: a question many players had, why was the theophylline riboswitch lab not closed after we scored the best design of 50? [6:26 PM]

jeehyung: @hoglahoo we'll have more clould labs soon : ] [6:26 PM]

hoglahoo: great :) [6:26 PM]

Brourd: :D [6:26 PM]

Deedie: Whats D mean? you people use it a lot [6:27 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd we are actually waiting for Brent to pick the next puzzle. We'll just pick the final round of results to see if finding the best score design affects average scores [6:27 PM]

Brourd: it's an emoticon for smiling, : representing the eyes, and D representing the mouth smiling [6:27 PM]

Brourd: oh, very good [6:27 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: who is Brent? [6:27 PM]

Brourd: so, it's Brent's end slowing us down then ;-) [6:28 PM]

starryjess: I use it for laughing or smiling really big [6:28 PM]

Deedie: I can't see emoticons, think it has to do with browser or windows xp. but now i know [6:28 PM]

hoglahoo: Yes, and can we get his phone number? (kidding, hehe) [6:28 PM]

Brourd: they were not expecting a winner by round 2 I presume? [6:28 PM]

Deedie: lol [6:28 PM]

jeehyung: @tomoe, it's the person who runs the Theophylline research [6:28 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd not at all. We thought it would take more time : P [6:28 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ok [6:29 PM]

hoglahoo: I'm glad we have 20 labs at once to play with now [6:29 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hogla! [6:29 PM]

jnicol: actually, the winning design was done in round 1 by randl [6:29 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that is true [6:29 PM]

jnicol: but not synthesized [6:29 PM]

Brourd: what can I say, that is what you pay us with fake coins to do ;D [6:29 PM]

Brourd: true jnicol [6:29 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: and it's fun, Brourd! [6:29 PM]

Brourd: however, the reson why is what they want us to figure [6:30 PM]

Brourd: *reason [6:30 PM]

hoglahoo: I gotta run. thanks for your work on eterna, jee, and hosting the chats [6:30 PM]

starryjess: why did some designs in the cloud lab come back with a score of 0? [6:30 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: bye hogla [6:31 PM]

Brourd: bye hoglahoo [6:31 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: jess, maybe because nobody voted for them? [6:31 PM]

starryjess: synthesized designs [6:31 PM]

starryjess: if you put it in "color sequences based on experimental data" view, it's all white [6:31 PM]

starryjess: almost like there is no data [6:32 PM]

Brourd: True, some synthed designs were given a 0, some were marked as still being synthesized [6:32 PM]

starryjess: but the score is 0 [6:32 PM]

starryjess: yes, because some just didn't have a score. What's the difference? [6:32 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ohhh [6:32 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: you didn't say they were synthesised, Jess [6:32 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: hmmm [6:33 PM]

spring: lol [6:33 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: glitch? [6:33 PM]

jeehyung: @starry there might have been some errors in the previous results. Thos will probably go away when we release fully verified results [6:33 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ok, so sort of like a glitch? [6:33 PM]

starryjess: oh, ok, thanks jee [6:33 PM]

jeehyung: Can you point me to one of the 0 score designs however, so that I can check back later? [6:33 PM]

starryjess: http://eterna.cmu.edu/game/browse/2333436/ [6:34 PM]

starryjess: sorry, that didn't do what I wanted :D [6:34 PM]

Hyphema: @Jee, back to the A's constraint, i realize we can still publish designs without meeting the constraint but how far, in your opinion, can we push that limit? [6:34 PM]

Brourd: here is another - http://eterna.cmu.edu/game/browse/2333418/?filter1=Id&filter1_arg1=2380348&filter1_arg2=2380348 [6:35 PM]

jeehyung: @starry and Brourd thanks for the link [6:35 PM]

starryjess: JR_Lab19_Submit2 in Lab 19 - Big Hairpin Loop [6:35 PM]

Brourd: @ hyphema - I think that is one of those things we are paid with fake coins to find out ;-) [6:36 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: that's hotcreek's [6:36 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :D [6:36 PM]

jeehyung: @Hyphema you can submit whatever you want. However, if you submit design that violtes constraints a lot, it risks its chance of getting voted, and probably has a good chance of failure [6:36 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ohhh [6:36 PM]

Brourd: Jee is correct [6:36 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: how do you make lab puzzles? [6:36 PM]

Brourd: Based on my own early views of the cloud labs, 4-5 is probably what you want as an upper limit [6:37 PM]

Hyphema: I suppose then we'll see what happens witht he switch lab results, should be interesting to see [6:37 PM]

Brourd: and then, there are several other issues to take into account, like the loop type, and bases used to break the string of adenine [6:38 PM]

Hyphema: oh, thanks Brourd for that info [6:38 PM]

Brourd: Uraciln may be the best choice [6:38 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: *Uracil [6:39 PM]

Brourd: Guanine, which players would choose because it would seem to not pair as often [6:39 PM]

Brourd: has issues when in a long string of adenine as well [6:39 PM]

jeehyung: @Hyphema however, if you think violating the constraints will get you good results, you should definitely try. After all, we belive in your intuitions and that's why we don't enforce the constraints in the labs. [6:39 PM]

Brourd: Uracil seems to do the best in terms of chemical mapping [6:40 PM]

Brourd: @ jee - I think you would like to vote on some of my own crazy constraint breaking designs then :) [6:41 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Uracil is Blue, right? [6:41 PM]

Brourd: yep [6:41 PM]

Brourd: @ Jee [6:41 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: checking [6:42 PM]

Brourd: I believe you could raise the adenine constraint to no more than 4 in a row [6:42 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd I'm sure Eterna players will know that better than I do now : ] [6:42 PM]

Brourd: instead of leaving it at 3 and choosing to bypass a specific sequence [6:42 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd - I'll ask Rhiju about that. It's him who decided the number. I agree it'll be easire to just increase it to 4. [6:43 PM]

Brourd: I think I can find a specific example [6:43 PM]

Brourd: http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363819436.png [6:44 PM]

Brourd: http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363819450.png [6:44 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: some of the Adenines look bleached [6:44 PM]

Brourd: let me get a better scrrenshot [6:44 PM]

Brourd: http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363819504.png [6:45 PM]

Brourd: http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363819511.png [6:45 PM]

Brourd: as you can see, the chemical mapping did quite well even when there were 6 A's in a row [6:45 PM]

Brourd: the problem did not begin until the number of adenine increased in the bottom section [6:46 PM]

Brourd: and a little bit at base 10 here [6:47 PM]

Brourd: http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363819622.png [6:47 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: jee, out of curiousity, would an app EVENTUALLY [6:47 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: be possible [6:47 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ? [6:47 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd I'll make sure to point it out to Rhiju [6:48 PM]

jeehyung: @Tomoe yes in fact we are forming a team at Stanford for the Eterna mobile this summer [6:48 PM]

Brourd: oh, cool [6:48 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: oh yes! [6:49 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: would it be available for all iOS devices? [6:49 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: just curious [6:49 PM]

jeehyung: Yes we'll have it available both for iOS and android devices [6:49 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: thank you SO much jee [6:49 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ok [6:49 PM]

jeehyung: We'll do our best Tomoe : ] [6:50 PM]

Eli Fisker: I forsee my bejeweled get competition if it goes on Ipod too [6:50 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: for iPad, iPhone, and iPod [6:50 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: haha [6:50 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: what generation iPod, Eli [6:50 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ? [6:50 PM]

Eli Fisker: 5th [6:50 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: touch? [6:50 PM]

Eli Fisker: yep [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: best way to play bejeweled [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: you have the NEW one? [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: only reason I got touch [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: lucky [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: I have 4th gen [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: 4 gen are cool too [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: I got the touch for the games [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :D [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: tons of free education on Itunes [6:51 PM]

Brourd: btw Jee, the 10 bases of the barcode that have chemical mapping are not a part of the score, correct? And neither are the first 5 bases of the sequence? [6:51 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yes [6:51 PM]

Eli Fisker: Tomoe, :) [6:52 PM]

Deedie: And i have now idea what you are talking about [6:52 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: But this is my favorite game, ever [6:52 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hi Deedie :) [6:52 PM]

Deedie: Hi eli [6:52 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd nope those parts don't count in scores unless they have blue/yellow colors [6:52 PM]

Deedie: I think they are talking about i phones or someting like that [6:53 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: jee, about the app, do you know whether it would cost money? [6:53 PM]

jeehyung: @Eli, Deedle Iphone, IPad or Ipod touch would do : ] [6:53 PM]

Eli Fisker: Deedie, we were talking about Ipods, because Jee said that they are going to make an application so one could play Eterna on the go [6:53 PM]

Brourd: so, bases 1-5 here - http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363820013.png are not scored - that is good to know, thanks [6:53 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: EteRNA on the go... what could be better [6:54 PM]

Deedie: Thats what i wat i touht, but the resr about generation, no idea [6:54 PM]

Eli Fisker: Deedie, that was just some tech details, just related to Ipod [6:55 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd In that case, those count to score as well. Not sure why we had data for the tails...will query Rhiju. Thanks for the pointer. [6:55 PM]

Brourd: @ Jee - is there any plan in the future to incorporate the individual base scoring into the interface? [6:55 PM]

Brourd: okay, thanks Jee [6:55 PM]

Deedie: I saw an ipod once [6:55 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: when? [6:55 PM]

jeehyung: Yes actually one of dev is working on showing SHAPE numbers for each base right now. I can ask her to add inidividual score as well [6:55 PM]

Brourd: and there is also yellow/blue data for the first 11 bases of the bar code [6:55 PM]

Deedie: Not so long ago, i think i did [6:56 PM]

Deedie: Is that also a phone? [6:56 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: nopee [6:56 PM]

Brourd: great Jee [6:56 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: you can text, though [6:56 PM]

Deedie: I know you can't call with an ipad [6:57 PM]

Deedie: You know what, i'm gonna look it up right now [6:57 PM]

Brourd: @ Jee - http://eterna.cmu.edu/sites/default/files/chat_screens/24263_1363820240.png - since 69-79 has blue/yellow data are they scored as well? [6:57 PM]

Eli Fisker: Hehe, it would look funny with people holding this big at thing close to their ear. [6:57 PM]

Brourd: that half of the "barcode" [6:58 PM]

Deedie: lol, indeed [6:58 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Deedie, good idea [6:58 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Eli, my friend did that [6:58 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: we laughed SO hard [6:58 PM]

Eli Fisker: lol, Tomoe [6:58 PM]

Deedie: O, yes i know what an ipod is, my daughter has one, [6:59 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yep [6:59 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: and it was at an Apple Store [6:59 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: the people working there were like, [6:59 PM]

Deedie: its for music and she uses it also on her blue ray? is that correct? [6:59 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: "WHAT is that girl doing?" [6:59 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yes [6:59 PM]

jnicol: anything new with scripting jee? [7:00 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Deedie, you are correct [6:59 PM]

Deedie: Thank you, i have to stay on focus with these things [7:00 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd yes - the hairpin is scored in the screenshot [7:00 PM]

Brourd: okay, thanks. So we should try our best to not screw that half of the barcode up :) [7:01 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: :D [7:01 PM]

Brourd: *barcode hairpin [7:01 PM]

jeehyung: @jnicol - we are adding few new functions from ViennaRNA such as scoring now. We are also testing the feature where player algorithm run as bots and solve player puzzles - it'll need some more testing though. [7:01 PM]

Brourd: On another note, is the Stanford lab going to resynthesize all the designs synthed using the old Sanger sequencing to compare scores and chemica mapping? [7:02 PM]

Hyphema: great idea B [7:02 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Sanger? [7:03 PM]

Eli Fisker: Fred Sanger [7:03 PM]

Eli Fisker: Have a video about his method somewhere [7:03 PM]

Deedie: Who's that? [7:03 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ohh [7:03 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: exactly what I want to know, Deedie [7:04 PM]

jeehyung: @Brourd yes in fact, we are planning to resynthesize every single designs before cloud labs/switches [7:04 PM]

jeehyung: We don't have exact ETAs yet but this should happen soon [7:04 PM]

Brourd: Cool! [7:04 PM]

Deedie: We still have got a lot to learn Tomoe [7:04 PM]

Brourd: It will be fascinating to see the differences between the 2 methods [7:04 PM]

Hyphema: indeed [7:04 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yes [7:04 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: well, I only joined... [7:05 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: 1 month, 3 days ago [7:05 PM]

Deedie: But i still like it [7:05 PM]

Deedie: I joined almost 4 monts ago [7:05 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: yep [7:05 PM]

Hyphema: @Jee, what's next for us and labs. single state cloud betas, switch clouds......? [7:06 PM]

jeehyung: All I should run in 5 minutes now - any last questions? [7:06 PM]

Brourd: @ Jee - so when do you step 3 of the cloud lab beta going to commence? [7:06 PM]

jeehyung: @Hyphema actaully we are going to revisit the first 20 cloud labs again and see if we can do better [7:06 PM]

jeehyung: (with the new no consecutive As constraints) [7:06 PM]

starryjess: ooh yay [7:06 PM]

Hyphema: r u saying round 2? [7:06 PM]

starryjess: I can do better :D [7:06 PM]

jeehyung: @hyphema yes exactly [7:07 PM]

Hyphema: cool [7:07 PM]

jeehyung: @starry we are counting on it. On some labs we got beaten by the bots : P [7:07 PM]

starryjess: uh oh >.< [7:07 PM]

Hyphema: i didnt give it my best then. nice to return to them [7:07 PM]

Eli Fisker: Tomoe and Deedie, here is a video that also has a section on Sanger sequencing [7:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: http:// www.you tube.com/watch?v=WX8V1SWQbFw [7:08 PM]

Deedie: thanks eli [7:08 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: thank you, Eli [7:08 PM]

Eli Fisker: np [7:08 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: cool [7:09 PM]

Eli Fisker: And Jee, sounds great on the extra synthesizing check, so we know that our data is accurate. Thx. [7:09 PM]

starryjess: what happens if it's not accurate? O.o [7:10 PM]

Brourd: oh, are we going to see new results? [7:10 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: Eli, is it still snowing in Denmark? [7:10 PM]

Brourd: For the bot designs? [7:10 PM]

Eli Fisker: Tomoe, not right now. But the snow is still there [7:10 PM]

Eli Fisker: Starry, then we can make fine new theories, but fitting wrong data. :) [7:11 PM]

jeehyung: @Eli, Brourd yes we'll see the full results soon : ] [7:11 PM]

TomoeUzumaki: ah [7:11 PM]

jeehyung: I gotta run now. Thanks for the discussion everyone. [7:11 PM]

jeehyung: I'll upload the chat log on the news [7:11 PM]